Broken English, and most of the few comments you have in your profile are pro-China. Hmmmm.....
China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
201–210 of 311 posts
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. A trade embargo (aka cold war) would be a lot worse for everyone involved.. Leads to arms race and threats of war, even less freedom and more injustice for the people (eg North Korea). > we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience .. Yeah,…
I don't think we have the same definition for freedom. Here's one freedom that we do have: I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship and you're free to counteract with other arguments, leading us to dialog, on a public forum. And on people dying, that's just another way of saying that great sacrifice has been made for us to enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we do have, so we can't trade t…
Great sacrifice was also made for the Chinese people to enjoy the way of life that they have.
In international issues, it's important to not lose sight of the possibility that there are multiple correct ways to solve political problems.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This is the fundamental problem with democracy: people are easily influenced That's not a problem with democracy. It's how people learn. We learn something and form an opinion about it. The problem comes when only certain media sources are allowed. In that case, it's harder for people to discuss alternate viewpoints
No, the problem isn't when only certain media sources are allowed - honestly, the problem is when any media sources are allowed at all. Frankly, I think Amercians are as deceived by propaganda as the Chinese. Did we somehow forget in this thread that in western press, one can rarely find an article that isn't full of bullshit? Even if the reasons differ (western media do this for profit), the end result is the same.
There certainly is propaganda masquerading as news in America (and other Western nations), and it's absolutely true that some people are deceived by this. However, there is also a wide variety of media, and it's certainly possible to find articles that are well-developed and not "full of bullshit".
(I imagine there are also ways of getting information beyond the curated "official news" in China; not living there, I'm not aware of the ways, of course. Perhaps, in China, you have to seek? In America, you do the opposite, you have to filter.)
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, I think Mr. Snowden would disagree on the "nobody has done it before." And he wasn't the first.
I don't know that Snowden is a good example: he had to flee his country in a hurry. There is a great deal of uncertainty about whether he would have a fair trial in the US, a country where many are calling him a traitor.
That's seletz's point.
It's easy for people to embrace the rhetoric that China is a bound society and the West is made of free societies. In reality, the shape of the bindings is different. A free society wouldn't have forced a man to flee because he knew he wouldn't find justice after revealing an uncomfortable political truth to the public that is oppressed by it. America's methods are different, but being a superpower and an empire demands supreme authority in key areas.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#205"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it" -- John Gilmore.
Even back in the slashdot days I always thought this oft-repeated quote was more of a hopeful rallying cry than an actual statement of fact. And I think it's been clear for at least ten years that it's definitely not true.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#206Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…
>I don't care much about what the Chinese do within their borders. The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. >Now that's fucked up, because we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience, also sending the message that it's OK as a country to violate basic human rights, as long as you're…
To be fair the issue is a lot more nuanced than that. For example, because of that trade we live in a quite peaceful period. This income in China has been used to bring hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty and into a middle class - where people have some luxury money and aren't engaged only in sustenance farming. I think this is an extremely valuable and positive thing, would you really want to stop this trade and put hundreds of millions back into poverty in order to feel a little more morally correct?
Sure, it's not perfect, but it's a lot more complicated than you might think at first glance.
https://ourworldindata.org/world-poverty/#declining-global-p... - look at the second graph here, trade with China and other developing countries has simultaneously brought more people out of poverty than ever before.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#207Broken English, and most of the few comments you have in your profile are pro-China. Hmmmm.....
Um, not a native English speaker here. Though as long as I can articulate my thoughts to have a meaningful discussion, I don't think that's being an issue. I would rather you focus on the topic and contribute your thoughts or counter-arguments, than focusing on trivia or throw off 5 cents party stuff to close this fruitful conversation.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. A trade embargo (aka cold war) would be a lot worse for everyone involved.. Leads to arms race and threats of war, even less freedom and more injustice for the people (eg North Korea). > we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience .. Yeah,…
While I agree that it isn't a good idea to have a trade embargo of China because we don't like how they run their country, I will quibble with the idea that at least my grandfathers and great uncles didn't know what they chose to fight and, if necessary, die for. " we in this island and in the British Empire will never lose our sense of comradeship with the French people. If we are now called upon to endure what they…
WW2 was an existential threat for Britain/Europe/"Christian civilization". I don't mean to diminish your forebears' bravery; I'd probably have been one of those men who was paralyzed with fear on the beach and never even fired a shot.
My point is just that facing an existential threat to your country, and by extension most of the people and places you've ever loved, is clear and highly motivating – and unusual for western countries in the last 60 years.
It's very different from the Korean War, Vietnam War, Falklands War, Gulf War, War in Afghanistan, etc. Those were not existential threats; they were mostly geopolitical posturing. I'm not making a statement on whether those were good or worthy wars (posturing can be necessary), but it's at least an arguable position that most casualties in those wars died "because delusional leaders sent them into battle," not because they were choosing to fight and die for some grand idea.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
A vast majority of people do not have the time to do any of that, simple as that. And the mainstream press is not to be counted on the good reporting side of things so while good reporting is out there, it is not accessible to the mass. That being the reason why good reporting still exists, because in the grand scheme of things, it does not matter.
> A vast majority of people do not have the time to do any of that A quality education is not spoon fed. It is the responsibility of the individual to educate him or herself. Making media available is only half of the equation
> "A quality education is not spoon fed."
It can be, you just have to be picky about the spoons. It's also useful to avoid relying on a single source of information, a diet of opposing views is healthy.
Self-directed education is probably the best overall, but nobody has time to keep up with everything going on in the world, at some point you have to find trustworthy news sources if you want to be aware of activity outside of your main interests.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
>I don't care much about what the Chinese do within their borders. The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. >Now that's fucked up, because we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience, also sending the message that it's OK as a country to violate basic human rights, as long as you're…
To be fair the issue is a lot more nuanced than that. For example, because of that trade we live in a quite peaceful period. This income in China has been used to bring hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty and into a middle class - where people have some luxury money and aren't engaged only in sustenance farming. I think this is an extremely valuable and positive thing, would you really want to stop…
Sure. A good thing. Or possibly a bad thing if we strengthen a tyranny that can’t find a path to freedom for its people. History will tell.
What I find most upsetting though is that much of this comes at the expense of the american middle class while the american upper class benefits. So less unrest in one country leads to more in another.
Personally, I wish values drove foreign policy more than business. And trade doesn’t equal peace. Connections lead to conflict. The USSR and US never fought despite the tensions of the cold war, while Europe, with all it’s interconnections and trade has blown apart in a world war twice in the last century.