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Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

america.aljazeera.com

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Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#31

Post by aluhut »

susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

She could use the situation as a leverage to push on privacy issues with US companies. Which may be obsolete with TTIP in future. So it wouldn't be a huge loss.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#32

Post by tobiasu »

rollo wrote: post #25

As a German I don't see this as an issue. Some German politicians have deep connections to enemy states, so why wouldn't the NSA spy on them? It's in our best interest even, because those politicans are a danger to Europe and Germany itself. You can also see the problem with Germany and France not behaving as allies of the USA in the war against Russia.

I'm intrigued, tell us more about the war against Russia. Which German politicians have deep connections with enemy states, and what are those states?

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#33

Post by tobiasu »

eru wrote: post #30
fit2rule wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. The US is not just Germanys' biggest partner - it controls Germanys' sovereignty. The German intelligence services are all run from Washington. When Merkel says 'it does not matter', its because its really not relevant that America is spying on Germany: its allowed to. Germany lost WW2, and has not had a restoration of the sovereignty of its intelligence servi…

Didn't the 4+2 treaties restore full sovereignty?

On paper. But the 2+4 treaty is mostly Soviets leave, NATO stays and expands.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#34

Post by bildung »

rollo wrote: post #25

As a German I don't see this as an issue. Some German politicians have deep connections to enemy states, so why wouldn't the NSA spy on them? It's in our best interest even, because those politicans are a danger to Europe and Germany itself. You can also see the problem with Germany and France not behaving as allies of the USA in the war against Russia.

As a German I don't see this as an issue. Some German politicians have deep connections to enemy states, so why wouldn't the NSA spy on them? It's in our best interest even, because those politicans are a danger to Europe and Germany itself.

As a German I very much see that as an issue. If there indeed are polititions having "deep connections to enemy states" (who do you mean?), I want the democratic process to handle that, not the intelligance agency of another state. What do we need a parliament for, anyway, if you think a practically unregulated third party is the right way to handle domestic discourse?

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#35

Post by mschuster91 »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #19

Well, it was well known in government circles (and beyond) that the US are spying on everyone including their allies, so the fact that they paid a mole in the German secret service shouldn't have been too surprising to the German government. The fact that he got uncovered and that the whole affair got public is a serious problem for Angela Merkel though: The German public already perceived her as way too soft towards…

> which would be a huge economic loss for the US

LOL, I hope you're not being serious. The only ones TTIP and friends are going to benefit is Big Capital and American producers of chlorine-treated chicken. No thanks, it's enough you fuck up your own country, no need to fuck up Europe too.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#36

Post by michaelt »

susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

  After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. 
  Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the 
  US.
The problem with "They're assholes but we'll let them do what they like because we need them" is America isn't the only country Germany needs. Germany also imports a lot of oil and natural gas from Russia, for example. And lots of electronics and manufactured goods from China.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#37

Post by bayesianhorse »

terranstyler wrote: post #15
perlgeek wrote: post #12

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political le…

The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have. It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory. [1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

Non-Souvereignty is largely regarded as a wild conspiracy theory. And really, what kind of evidence is there?

Inevitably, signs of "foreign control" turns out to be some form of competition, cooperation, trade or just plain common interests.

What counts more is that Germans are allowed to say anything they want, there is no evidence of tampering in elections, the press is free and extensive, and people can largely do as they please. Nothing is ever perfect, but claiming US sovereignty over Germay is just plain stupid.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#38

Post by bayesianhorse »

terranstyler wrote: post #15
perlgeek wrote: post #12

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political le…

The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have. It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory. [1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

Non-Souvereignty is largely regarded as a wild conspiracy theory. And really, what kind of evidence is there?

Inevitably, signs of "foreign control" turns out to be some form of competition, cooperation, trade or just plain common interests.

What counts more is that Germans are allowed to say anything they want, there is no evidence of tampering in elections, the press is free and extensive, and people can largely do as they please. Nothing is ever perfect, but claiming US sovereignty over Germay is just plain stupid.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#39

Post by Zigurd »

terranstyler wrote: post #15
perlgeek wrote: post #12

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political le…

The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have. It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory. [1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

> makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have.

Don't wonder. Throughout the Cold War it was patriotic to sacrifice some of your nation's sovereignty to secret agreements and relationships to make your country safer from the very real Soviet threat.

Now all those agreements and relationships have been repurposed in the Global War on Terror. So first you have to decide how much sovereignty you, as an insider who took part in those agreements, want, and how much alienation from your voters you can stand.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#40

Post by Kenji »

susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

"After all, it's the US who's providing security to most of the western world."

If I do what the bully tells me to do, he leaves me alone and attacks other people. That's not security, that's abuse.

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