Progressives seem to have lost all understanding of the concept of money. It is a means of trade. The spending power of the basic income will ultimately reflect the value its recipients produced in order to obtain it - zero in this case.
A universal income is not such a silly idea
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Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea
#32Rather than these posts discussing universal basic income in abstract, I would like to see someone go through a back of the envelope scenario for a real country that might try it. Switzerland or some other European country. Presumably there would need to be major changes to income tax brackets (especially for the lower income tiers) & dismantling of various existing welfare programs in order to fund a basic income. I…
Yes. This was posted on hacker news a couple of weeks ago and attempts to put some basic (US) figures through a monte carlo simulation: http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2013/basic_income_vs_basic...
There was a lot of discussion generated from this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6725096
Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea
#33The thing I genuinely don't understand regarding the basic income for all argument is that surely it just moves the goal posts rather than solves the problem at hand? In the current system, you can go stay at home and get income support, which should provide you with the basics i.e. a home, food, electricity etc. If you would like more than this, you can go and get a job and hopefully earn more (have a better lifesty…
> If you would like more than this, you can go and get a job and hopefully earn more (have a better lifestyle) than staying at home not working.
Except this isn't the case, since benefits are usually cut when you starting working. This means that you start work in an insecure job with no necessary increase in quality of life.
With a guaranteed income, if you were to get a job, you'd have a guaranteed increase in your quality of life, since the benefits are always there, so there is actually more incentive to work.
Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea
#34In a country with it's own currency, wouldn't this just raise prices until finally the effect would be being back to step 1 but with huge inflation. I.e. I'm selling bread for $3. Now I get $1500 free money every month and I know you do too. I'm selling bread for $6 because I know everyone has extra money lying around and since I have extra money I don't really care if people buy less from me.
I used to wonder what would happen if everyone in the UK got £1m given to them as a one off payment. We'd all be millionaires but poor as each other.
You are missing the point here, in your example when new money is created (to be able to hand it to everyone) you simply devalue currency and create inflation.
Universal income is not being generated out of thin air by the government, it is being generated by tax. Therefore you will not find hyper inflation of the form you suggest.
Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea
#35Basic income has potential but I think people are waiting for the governments to provide, while there is possibly another way.
Imagine creating bitcoin version that does not favor early adopters, but allows everyone participating to get the same amount of coins every week. Of course it's easier said than done, and it would need to be detailed a little more, but I think it's possible.
Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea
#36It's not a silly idea at all but I like to think of myself as progressive and I think it is a very bad idea in reality vs on paper. Just look at how college costs magically rise to the availability of loans and grants. What do you think is going to happen to food and rent prices once those supply chains figure out there is much more profit to be made? The Walton family alone has more wealth then the lower 42% rest of…
Presumably a lot of the potential profit would be taxed to fund this basic income guarantee. In any case, it seems like your argument boils down to "Better not let poor people buy food, in case the price of food rises," which I think fails without significant deeper examination.
Nope, I say make sure poor people have that basic income.
You don't have to give it to everyone.
I live in a low income neighborhood - you can clearly see the difference in generational poverty and how help is needed.
You also can fix the problem by making sure that corporations like Walmart do not rely on their employees getting foodstamps as part of their income as a business model. It is a very unlevel playing field when entire cities are funding the "low prices".
Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea
#37It's not a silly idea at all but I like to think of myself as progressive and I think it is a very bad idea in reality vs on paper. Just look at how college costs magically rise to the availability of loans and grants. What do you think is going to happen to food and rent prices once those supply chains figure out there is much more profit to be made? The Walton family alone has more wealth then the lower 42% rest of…
You assume that those minimum wage shelf stackers will work the same hours for the same pay in the same conditions.
Prices rise. But costs rise too. The wealthy would be no more or less wealthy than they were before.
Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea
#38It's not a silly idea at all but I like to think of myself as progressive and I think it is a very bad idea in reality vs on paper. Just look at how college costs magically rise to the availability of loans and grants. What do you think is going to happen to food and rent prices once those supply chains figure out there is much more profit to be made? The Walton family alone has more wealth then the lower 42% rest of…
The Walton family alone has more wealth then the lower 42% rest of the USA.
So do I, and so does almost anyone with a positive net worth.
Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
I had a genuinely new idea this morning. Paying people for idleness increases idleness, which isn't necessarily good for the recipient. Why not pay them instead for doing things that make their life individually or collectively better? * Pay them for taking and passing college classes. * Pay them for losing weight and getting their BMI to an acceptable level that reduces collective health care costs. * Pay them for g…
Wouldn't this impose some sort of control mechanism, akin to the "employment search" one which is already mentioned as inefficient and bureaucratic in the article? For instance, isn't "pay them to drive more safely" similar to "make them pay fines when they drive unsafely, i.e. speeding"?
Actually, it's more like giving them an insurance discount when they carry around one of those black boxes that measures their driving. But it's not very different from what you said, really. Is it inefficient and bureaucratic? It's not that difficult to ask someone to step on a scale and measure their weight and height, or determine whether they have completed a college course. I think the benefits are worth the effort.
Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea
#40The thing I genuinely don't understand regarding the basic income for all argument is that surely it just moves the goal posts rather than solves the problem at hand? In the current system, you can go stay at home and get income support, which should provide you with the basics i.e. a home, food, electricity etc. If you would like more than this, you can go and get a job and hopefully earn more (have a better lifesty…
I think it is not just about moving goalposts.
What is different is that it frees you from the worry that you need to eat and have an abode. And the hope is that this comfort will make you engage in work you really want to do, rather then turn you into a couch potato.