A universal income is not such a silly idea • Hacker News Board

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#11

Post by netcan » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:09 PM UTC

Rather than these posts discussing universal basic income in abstract, I would like to see someone go through a back of the envelope scenario for a real country that might try it. Switzerland or some other European country.

Presumably there would need to be major changes to income tax brackets (especially for the lower income tiers) & dismantling of various existing welfare programs in order to fund a basic income. I think Friedman included public services like schools, public transport, health services, etc in his definition of welfare. I doubt Europeans would go this far.

Then we can discuss the more speculative parts like who will be more or less incentivized to work.

Is there something like that on the internet?

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#12

Post by ck2 » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:09 PM UTC

It's not a silly idea at all but I like to think of myself as progressive and I think it is a very bad idea in reality vs on paper.

Just look at how college costs magically rise to the availability of loans and grants. What do you think is going to happen to food and rent prices once those supply chains figure out there is much more profit to be made?

The Walton family alone has more wealth then the lower 42% rest of the USA. What do you think is going to happen when they know all their customers have a certain base income - you think prices are going to stay where they are?

So you will just make the wealthy more wealthy.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#13

Post by dhekir » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:10 PM UTC

LogicalBorg wrote: post #4

twoodfin wrote: post #2

Can we stop putting these "universal income" posts on the front page until someone has something genuinely new to say about the idea or there's some news about an actual implementation?

I had a genuinely new idea this morning. Paying people for idleness increases idleness, which isn't necessarily good for the recipient. Why not pay them instead for doing things that make their life individually or collectively better? * Pay them for taking and passing college classes. * Pay them for losing weight and getting their BMI to an acceptable level that reduces collective health care costs. * Pay them for g…

Wouldn't this impose some sort of control mechanism, akin to the "employment search" one which is already mentioned as inefficient and bureaucratic in the article?

For instance, isn't "pay them to drive more safely" similar to "make them pay fines when they drive unsafely, i.e. speeding"?

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#14

Post by etfb » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:10 PM UTC

wanda wrote: post #3

Can we stop putting these "universal income" posts on the front page.

Post something, Wanda. Stop complaining that the people who are doing what you're not doing are more successful at it.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#15

Post by agilebyte » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:10 PM UTC

LogicalBorg wrote: post #4

twoodfin wrote: post #2

Can we stop putting these "universal income" posts on the front page until someone has something genuinely new to say about the idea or there's some news about an actual implementation?

I had a genuinely new idea this morning. Paying people for idleness increases idleness, which isn't necessarily good for the recipient. Why not pay them instead for doing things that make their life individually or collectively better? * Pay them for taking and passing college classes. * Pay them for losing weight and getting their BMI to an acceptable level that reduces collective health care costs. * Pay them for g…

But then the money has strings attached and you need to check whether people really comply (= cost). Basic income wants to avoid that by simplifying the welfare system assuming that most people do not want to simply be idle.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#16

Post by ayush66 » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:11 PM UTC

1. The title is misleading. 2. Are you guys talking in the context of the US, or globally?

Different implications based on the two different scenarios.

PS: Studied and study economics.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#17

Post by martin-adams » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:13 PM UTC

hatu wrote: post #6

In a country with it's own currency, wouldn't this just raise prices until finally the effect would be being back to step 1 but with huge inflation. I.e. I'm selling bread for $3. Now I get $1500 free money every month and I know you do too. I'm selling bread for $6 because I know everyone has extra money lying around and since I have extra money I don't really care if people buy less from me.

I used to wonder what would happen if everyone in the UK got £1m given to them as a one off payment. We'd all be millionaires but poor as each other.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#18

Post by graylights » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:15 PM UTC

LogicalBorg wrote: post #4

twoodfin wrote: post #2

Can we stop putting these "universal income" posts on the front page until someone has something genuinely new to say about the idea or there's some news about an actual implementation?

I had a genuinely new idea this morning. Paying people for idleness increases idleness, which isn't necessarily good for the recipient. Why not pay them instead for doing things that make their life individually or collectively better? * Pay them for taking and passing college classes. * Pay them for losing weight and getting their BMI to an acceptable level that reduces collective health care costs. * Pay them for g…

But that's exactly the point of universal income. You don't pay them for idleness, you pay them regardless. You just don't pay them enough for their desires, just their needs.

All those things you want cost money to verify and adds massive administration costs. Another point of universal income is it's cheap to administrate.

If you want to "pay" people for taking college, just subsidize it.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#19

Post by jamesaguilar » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:15 PM UTC

ck2 wrote: post #12

It's not a silly idea at all but I like to think of myself as progressive and I think it is a very bad idea in reality vs on paper. Just look at how college costs magically rise to the availability of loans and grants. What do you think is going to happen to food and rent prices once those supply chains figure out there is much more profit to be made? The Walton family alone has more wealth then the lower 42% rest of…

Presumably a lot of the potential profit would be taxed to fund this basic income guarantee. In any case, it seems like your argument boils down to "Better not let poor people buy food, in case the price of food rises," which I think fails without significant deeper examination.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#20

Post by bwanab » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 2:16 PM UTC

hatu wrote: post #6

In a country with it's own currency, wouldn't this just raise prices until finally the effect would be being back to step 1 but with huge inflation. I.e. I'm selling bread for $3. Now I get $1500 free money every month and I know you do too. I'm selling bread for $6 because I know everyone has extra money lying around and since I have extra money I don't really care if people buy less from me.

There's this side concept called competition. If you sell your bread for $6 because you think the market can afford it, but the vendor next door continues to sell for $3 you go broke.

I didn't always see eye to eye with Milton Friedman, but I think we can give him credit that he'd thought through the obvious problems with this approach before he proposed it.