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Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

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Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#31

Post by Xixi »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

Mercedes has a lot of help in this fight: the writing is not on the wall, it's in the law. That should be quite helpful in convincing employees to not only not fight the change, but to push for the change. At some point survival instinct kicks in.

ICE cars will be banned (either already law, or being discussed) in: Norway (2025), Netherlands (2025), India (2030), Germany (maybe 2030), France (2040), China (date unknown yet).

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#32

Post by WorldMaker »

saosebastiao wrote: post #16
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

GM maybe. Mercedes definitely not. Unlike almost all automakers, Mercedes has consistently embraced change. Their entire premise is to build a car that is 10 years into the future, and generally speaking they do it. Sometimes they mispredict the future, but they have never been afraid to correct course. A different type of drivetrain doesn't mean starting from scratch. It's a major component, but it would be foolish…

GM has had skin in the electric car game for decades (although a flop, the EV1 was still a try). They've sold a healthy number of Volts, Sparks, Cadillac ELRs, and now Bolts. Whether or not you are correct in supposing Mercedes can embrace the change, using GM as a counter-example is a bad analogy because from the GM perspective it is Mercedes that needs to catch up.

That said, I'm not expecting GM to set an aggressive EV pace either such as VW's 2030 goal, but they do expect to be the first to high volume electric vehicle sales [1].

[1] http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110469_gm-goal-profitab...

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#33

Post by lrei »

saosebastiao wrote: post #16
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

GM maybe. Mercedes definitely not. Unlike almost all automakers, Mercedes has consistently embraced change. Their entire premise is to build a car that is 10 years into the future, and generally speaking they do it. Sometimes they mispredict the future, but they have never been afraid to correct course. A different type of drivetrain doesn't mean starting from scratch. It's a major component, but it would be foolish…

I have plenty of experience with Mercedes, Audi, volvo, jeep and BMW cars - driving, renting, test driving them or being the passanger. I would say Mercedes is at least 5 years behind the competition at approx same price point. Disclaimer: I'm obviously not qualified to talk about suspension technology, combustion engines etc. But tech (e.g pilot assist/autopilot), Driver interface features and multimedia, yeah Mercedes is very very very far behind.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#34

Post by petra »

drewg123 wrote: post #29

TL;DR "Its the charging, stupid" Until they have a fast charging option like Tesla's, then all the other auto makers will be "also rans" in my opinion. Case in point: The Chevy Bolt is, on paper, a Tesla Model 3 killer. It is cheaper, has better range, and it is available now. However, there is no way to charge it on a road trip (unless you're a masochist, and want to depend on flaky 3rd party charging networks where…

So what's the end game for Tesla ? owning the best charging network with large network effects, and getting high margins?

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#35

Post by arethuza »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #19
ams6110 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not call it a 180. Maybe more like a right turn, if even that much. All their sheet metal stamping (or carbon fiber fabrication), chassis-making, interior manufacturing, paint, as well as parts suppliers for all that, glass, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. can be directly used. They just need to change the drivetrain. Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well establi…

Granted, in part. Especially on interior manufacturing, where Tesla's flagship Model-S luxury sedan could stand to learn a thing or two from Mercedes, and in sheet metal stamping/carbon fiber fabrication, where OEMs do invest a lot of attention. But I maintain that the primary focus of an automotive manufacturer is their powertrain. This is evidenced by the outsourcing of many of those other components, and by the re…

"primary focus of an automotive manufacturer is their powertrain"

The VW Group re-uses the same engines across lots of its different brands - for a high-performance or electric car then of course the powertrain is important. For everything else its just one component and as long as it is good enough I suspect people aren't really that interested.

Edit: Other manufacturers may do this, I'm just more familiar with VW Group cars.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#36

Post by izacus »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

> Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and production lines that are specialized for ICE manufacturing will buck against the change. Their supply chain, dealerships, and repair shops will have the same problems and will also provide resistance.

This! There is an incredible amount of people (and contractors) whos life depends on building components of ICE cars around these companies. They'll fight tooth and nail to keep those profits from dwindling even if that'll doom them in the long run. The amount of internal politics must be staggering and IMO is the main reason why all EV attempts from these companies are so awful - they literaly look like someone tried to sabotage each and every one of those projects.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#37

Post by WorldMaker »

S_A_P wrote: post #25

I said this statement in the MB electrification article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15219469 Electric cars need a battery tech that offers a "refuel experience" if they want to change the game. Ive seen things like solid battery tech that may offer something close to this. Im not anywhere near an expert on battery tech, but I can say as a car guy that mainstream adoption hinges on this. Once this battery tec…

Chargers are already described by Levels: Level 1 is wall-outlet 120, Level 2 is "dryer outlet" 240, Level 3+ is "super-charger"/CHaDeMO. Most car displays show estimated charging times for each level in one way or another.

"Refuel experience" is a red herring at best. Partly because the ubiquity of the electric grid means that you can charge anywhere: that's the subtle game changer that doesn't always come across when someone new to electric vehicles thinks about them. A Level 1 trickle charge while I'm asleep at home is plenty for my daily work commute. My car is parked nearly the same amount of time in my work parking lot: if the office park added a Level 1 or Level 2 charger next to the street lamp I park by I'd almost never need to charge at home.

Road trips are definitely the exception to the daily grind, and are the place where you really want a good "refuel experience". I think Tesla's superchargers fit that fine, but obviously there's a range currently to people's road trip experience. (90% of 300+ miles in 30 minutes; that's about my bladder range and 30 minutes is a light snack, a good stretch, and a brief glance at Twitter or a chapter of a good book.) It might get better than that as battery tech changes, but let's face it that we're at a good enough start now that we should stop dismissing electric cars because you don't think they have a "refuel experience".

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#38

Post by justin66 »

njarboe wrote: post #21
ams6110 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not call it a 180. Maybe more like a right turn, if even that much. All their sheet metal stamping (or carbon fiber fabrication), chassis-making, interior manufacturing, paint, as well as parts suppliers for all that, glass, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. can be directly used. They just need to change the drivetrain. Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well establi…

The problem is that the drive-train is what car companies see as their "core competency" and have focused their energy and talents on doing that and out-sourcing the rest. Maybe they can make switch to "car making factories" as the core competency (Elon Musk says Tesla is focusing on "making the machine that makes the machine"). Not a huge switch, but those top engineers, passionate car guys at Mercedes, might not be…

Manufacturers use other companies' powerplants all the time, so I don't know if I'd characterize it as a core competency. It's even easier to do with electric motors, if anyone is selling. They've been a partner of Tesla in the past...

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#40

Post by Keyframe »

ginko wrote: post #11
VeejayRampay wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, as a Frenchman, if history has taught me ANYTHING about the Germans, it's that they're generally very apt at changing course, adapting and being ahead of the curve. They have that image of not being the most flexible but when it comes to technology and industry, they're pretty damn good and I think they'll make that transition just like they've made all the necessary transitions before.

A good counter example of this is the downfall of the German camera industry in the 60s and 70s. All that's left of that is Leica, Zeiss and a bunch of brand names (Rollei, Contax, Voigtländer..) stuck on Japanese cameras.

Maybe, but what's left is the stuff of legends. Zeiss (and Schott) are industry leaders, as is ARRI.
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