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What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

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Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#31

Post by Cerium »

School-Cotton wrote: post #19
crispyambulance wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or…

So? If the 1000 best candidates are Asian then you should admit the 1000 Asians. I can see giving extra help to historically marginalized races at the expense of whites, but why ding Asians? They weren't responsible for racism in the US. They weren't the ones stealing resources from other people. Do correct me if I'm wrong but your post seems to amount to "a lot of Asians work hard and are smart, so let's have a quot…

I wouldn't believe that the SAT is the only criteria for best.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#32

Post by Bartweiss »

BeetleB wrote: post #22
qntty wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between the discrimination against Asian-American students (which does happen) and discrimination against students from Asia. For one, public universities exist mostly to educate people from the state they are based, and can justify discriminating against people outside the state and even more against people who don't live in states which exchange students with that state (i.e. people outside…

>None of this justifies discriminating against Asian-American students, which is truly unjust, and shouldn't be confused for justifiable discrimination. I keep hearing this (primarily from Asian Americans who feel they didn't get into their preferred top N school), and yet they never provide evidence to support it. They give me reason and logic , but no evidence. It is trivially easy to find counterexamples to all th…

I'm not sure I understand here: are you objecting to a lack of evidence that Asian-American students are penalized for their ethnicity, or a lack of evidence for the claim that this is unjustifiable discrimination?

The first point is easy to prove - every admissions-rate breakdown suggests that many colleges apply a substantial penalty to Asian students, equivalent to ~100 points of SAT score. (Elite colleges also have distorted admissions percentages for Asian-Americans, but this SAT penalty can't be calculated cleanly; scores are bounded at 2400 and many applicants are >2300.) Other people have linked plenty of sources here, and I'd like to hear a counterargument if there is one.

If you mean the second point, it shakes out of affirmative action arguments pretty directly. The question is whether we accept affirmative-action-as-erasing-privilege (which shouldn't penalize Asian students) or affirmative-action-as-increasing-diversity (which I suppose would try to mirror population percentages regardless of privilege). Plenty has been written on that, but I can see how one might accept the "Asian penalty" on a diversity argument.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#33

Post by Bartweiss »

jseliger wrote: post #30
munin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and no authentic detectable motivation They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18?

They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18? Seriously. My thoughts exactly. There are obviously some 18-year-old college students who know exactly what they want (some of them are replying), but even many of those will change their minds. When I was 18 I had no idea what I wanted to do (except perhaps get laid), but it was clear that college was "the next step." On a tangent…

I still resent the colleges which used "Why do you want to come to Blah University in particular?" as an admissions prompt.

For a graduate program, fine. For an undergraduate program? There are a handful of acceptable cases (Stanford makes you apply to a major), but mostly it's either "it's a good school that I hope I can get in to" or "it's a mediocre school and I need a safety for when Harvard shoots me down". These are places that let you spend 2-3 years 'undeclared', but they put on a song-and-dance about high school students having specific goals.

I'm sure some of them want applicants who do have a specific reason to attend Blah, but even then there's no excuse for the usual system. You can't plan your life around Professor X at Blah, because Blah has a 15% acceptance rate and accepts among qualified students more or less at random.

I remember that UPenn in particular had an essay prompt which was effectively "We're insecure, please praise us for 500 words."

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#34

Post by witty_username »

hatmatrix wrote: post #25
School-Cotton wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? If the 1000 best candidates are Asian then you should admit the 1000 Asians. I can see giving extra help to historically marginalized races at the expense of whites, but why ding Asians? They weren't responsible for racism in the US. They weren't the ones stealing resources from other people. Do correct me if I'm wrong but your post seems to amount to "a lot of Asians work hard and are smart, so let's have a quot…

But what is "best"? While their achievements are commendable, admitting all of them will lead to a homogeneous student body and presumably not the best outcome for the institution, its graduates, or society.

What is wrong with a homogeneous student body? Forced diversity is AS racist as discrimination against blacks.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#35

Post by justaman »

School-Cotton wrote: post #19
crispyambulance wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or…

So? If the 1000 best candidates are Asian then you should admit the 1000 Asians. I can see giving extra help to historically marginalized races at the expense of whites, but why ding Asians? They weren't responsible for racism in the US. They weren't the ones stealing resources from other people. Do correct me if I'm wrong but your post seems to amount to "a lot of Asians work hard and are smart, so let's have a quot…

> I can see giving extra help to historically marginalized races at the expense of whites, but why ding Asians? They weren't responsible for racism in the US. They weren't the ones stealing resources from other people.

White twenty-something college students had nothing to do with this either. I'm against any type of extra help for anyone based on their race. Rather grant extra help based on economic situations.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#36

Post by startupdiscuss »

crispyambulance wrote: post #10
kyleschiller wrote: post #2

Chinese students are products of an educational system that, for all of its high achievers, is built to suppress intellectual curiosity, creativity and individuality – the very qualities that American admissions officers value most. Let's not pretend Chinese students are turned away because they lack individuality. The fairly well documented[0][1][2] truth here is that American universities are using qualities like "…

Admissions try to get a well-rounded student body rather than many well-rounded students but the Asian-American "tiger-mom" phenomena is not a joke for elite college admissions officers. They really do see large numbers of what are known (in derogatory terms) as Asian-clones: 4.0 GPA, violin or piano skills, and no authentic detectable motivation other than getting high grades for the purpose of becoming a doctor or…

And that's who I want representing me in court and diagnosing my medical conditions!

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#37

Post by Bartweiss »

lordnacho wrote: post #28

Regarding the children of famous/important people, perhaps someone can shed some light. How exactly do you specify on your application who your parents are? I remember the process at Oxford, there wasn't really a way to say "oh btw my dad is a rock star" other than the personal statement. And it's hardly going to impress the person who's interviewing you to blurt out something like that, because all the questions are…

It depends a lot on the degree and type of importance.

If your dad is Mick Jagger, the last name will probably suffice. Less facetiously, there are still Roosevelts and Cabbotts and Coolidges out there and those names do carry weight in some places. I imagine there are some names which would go pretty far at Oxford too.

If your parents are more self-made (or the last name doesn't reflect the lineage), the personal statement can absolutely cover this. "Growing up in the shadow of my family" is partly about personal development, but partly a way to say "check out my family".

Honestly, though?

In the US, this gets handled via side channels. Our applications have a space for 'legacy status', where you list past attendees in your family. Anything counts, but rich and famous alumni are especially good. And if your family is important enough, they'll probably have talked to the school completely independent of your application. Likely, they'll have started years before you applied.

I know several people from top US colleges who have a story about meeting some strangely unqualified classmate, and then discovering that they shared a name with some building on campus. At the very top end, there's certainly room to pave the way with donations and personal friendships.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#38

Post by defen »

dominotw wrote: post #9
nraynaud wrote: post #3

They forgot to mention the SEVIS record madness (want to know what the muslim registry will look like?), I20, being heckled or killed in the streets and casual border crossing racism by the CBP.

> being heckled or killed in the streets huh? >casual border crossing racism by the CBP. I had an "immigration office" tell me "you will be kicked out like dogs if these documents don't verify". My dad swore off visiting me in America due to his similar experience, I don't blame him. What decent person would put up with this, why do they do this?

>> being heckled or killed in the streets

> huh?

There were a couple (at least 2, maybe 3) of high-profile murders of Chinese grad students at UCLA within the past couple of years, which is my guess about what OP is referring to. The victims were targeted for their perceived wealth and/or foreignness.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#39

Post by tacomonstrous »

witty_username wrote: post #34
hatmatrix wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what is "best"? While their achievements are commendable, admitting all of them will lead to a homogeneous student body and presumably not the best outcome for the institution, its graduates, or society.

What is wrong with a homogeneous student body? Forced diversity is AS racist as discrimination against blacks.

No, it's not. It's not even in the same universe as discrimination against blacks. I understand that the Asian-American community is a good totem for you to rally your attitudes around, but as a member of it, I'd be happier if you left us out of this hateful rhetoric.

Re: What Chinese students go through to get into top American universities (2016)

#40

Post by Y201K »

Bartweiss wrote: post #33
jseliger wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're 18. What do you want? What authentic motivation did you have when you were 18? Seriously. My thoughts exactly. There are obviously some 18-year-old college students who know exactly what they want (some of them are replying), but even many of those will change their minds. When I was 18 I had no idea what I wanted to do (except perhaps get laid), but it was clear that college was "the next step." On a tangent…

I still resent the colleges which used "Why do you want to come to Blah University in particular?" as an admissions prompt. For a graduate program, fine. For an undergraduate program? There are a handful of acceptable cases (Stanford makes you apply to a major), but mostly it's either "it's a good school that I hope I can get in to" or "it's a mediocre school and I need a safety for when Harvard shoots me down". Thes…

Essays for transfering are very similar: "Why do you want to come here / why did you leave your last situation?"

Surely they'd like you to write about environment or purpose, but like with a first job as a kid, I think "the other place sucked / the classes weren't any good there" should suffice.

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