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U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

computerworld.com

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Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#31

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

coliveira wrote: post #21
adevine wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is true, I have found that a developer who can do the following to be very rare: 1. Take a set of requirements, and first identify those reqs for any underspecified elements, or elements where the underlying tech would limit the functionality. 2. Implement the reqs according to the now agreed upon spec 3. Provide adequate documentation and tests for the new implementation. 4. Perhaps most importantly, and…

All of these things could be easily overcome with better training. The way I see it, the software industry in the US invests close to nothing in training and expects to receive "talented" developers by just selecting a small proportion from a large pool of candidates. This is a lazy and irresponsible way to create a workforce. The time and effort they spend in interviewing could be very well spent on teaching best pr…

I think the implication is that you're supposed to learn all of that on your own. That's at the very minimum-you're supposed to eat, breathe, and shit hacker culture and programming in your spare time.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#32

Post by revelation »

secondtimeuse wrote: post #8
revelation wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the connection between electrical engineering and cheap soldering in China? That's like saying it's cheaper to hire Chinese to type into a keyboard, so programmers are no longer in demand.

If you think hon hai precision industry co. ltd (aka foxconn) is merely doing "soldering" in China you ought to catch up with the market reality. Almost everyone I know who is employed at Apple (in California) with electrical engineering degree, goes on multi-month annual visits to Chinese plants.

You still haven't clarified this. Are they going there to supervise the manufacturing process or to learn from their peers? Is Foxconn doing EE design for Apple?

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#33

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

virmundi wrote: post #15
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of programming jobs don't require rock star programmers.

I agree with the literal sentence. I disagree that with its implied extreme. Most jobs don't require rock star programmers. Most jobs require people that can do more than cobble together a series of StackOverflow answers. This implies that most jobs need to have competent developers. From my limited experience, competent is getting harder to find. I go into a JavaScript SPA almost daily. I'm not a big JavaScript guy,…

I really can't agree or disagree with what you're saying, you are talking about very specific things that I'm not sure say anything more than your biases and experiences.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#34

Post by ones_and_zeros »

secondtimeuse wrote: post #19
ones_and_zeros wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to these reports, starting salaries for CS graduates are about 4% lower in 2015[0] than in 2014[1]. The recent OPT moves by DHS is proof enough the government is all too willing to help employers in any way possible and isn't interested in actually helping citizens and green card holders fill these jobs. [0] https://www.naceweb.org/uploadedFiles/Content/static-assets/... [1] https://www.naceweb.org/uploaded…

Actually there was a 6% increase in salary between 2013 and 2014. And the "data" for 2015 is derived from mere 705 "# of Salaries". There aren't any new recent moves by DHS regarding "OPTs". The proposed change in "STEM Extension", won't come into affect at least until mid 2016.

I compared 2014 to 2015.

In regard to DHS, the US court system found that DHS unlawfully created the rules for OPT in 2008 in backroom deals with industry lobbyists. When the court told them so, the DHS went in to "all hands on deck" mode to come up with a work around. (So far they've failed, putting ~130k OPT guest workers at risk of having to leave the country on Feb 12th 2016). Besides the question of what is DHS doing involving itself in student training programs and guest worker visas, but the other question is why wasn't what happened at Disney an "all hands on deck" situation? Where is the support for the citizens?

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#35

Post by Cookingboy »

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #28
Cookingboy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is ridiculous. I'm not going to discuss the demand for accountants and cab drivers or the differences between engineering job and cab driver, but your assumption of there are plenty of exceptional accountants in India and exceptional cab drivers in Europe is unfounded. Why would Indian accountants be experts with U.S. accounting practices and tax laws? Would they be amazing at dealing with customers an…

If good engineers from China and India (or really anywhere) are just as good at their subject as anyone else then preference should be given to the citizen, but it's actually the reverse in practice, and that is by design. If the foreign engineers are really that good then why do most of them do low level work with low status positions for 70k/year? Sounds like poor use of the "best and brightest" to me...

There is no preference when it comes to hiring Top Tier engineers. Here at Google we try to hire everyone that can pass the interviews, if you are a U.S. Citizen that doesn't require Visa sponsorship then it's all the much better. I've never ever heard of anyone losing their job to foreigners in top Silicon Valley companies.

I never said foreign engineers are better, I said top ones are just as good as top ones here. Most of them work in low level positions for 70k a year but that's true for most American engineers as well. Cost would obviously play a big role for jobs of those level.

But I was replying to the comment about exceptional talent, not the overall job market.

What makes you think they WOULDN'T be as good? I've casually worked with some top tier Engineers from Baidu and Alibaba before this job and I'd say they'd have no problem landing a good position at Google or Facebook any day.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#36

Post by Cookingboy »

coliveira wrote: post #30
Cookingboy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is ridiculous. I'm not going to discuss the demand for accountants and cab drivers or the differences between engineering job and cab driver, but your assumption of there are plenty of exceptional accountants in India and exceptional cab drivers in Europe is unfounded. Why would Indian accountants be experts with U.S. accounting practices and tax laws? Would they be amazing at dealing with customers an…

There is nothing ridiculous in this statement. You are talking about "exceptional" workers, not about normal or even bad workers. Exceptional workers are in short supply in any profession. According to the logic of software industry, the solution should be to import workers from other nations, because then we would have access to the best of the best. Of course it is not like that. Software engineers from India or Ch…

Read the comment I replied to, he was talking about exceptional cab drivers and exceptional accountants, thus making his statements ridiculous.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#37

Post by coliveira »

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #28
Cookingboy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is ridiculous. I'm not going to discuss the demand for accountants and cab drivers or the differences between engineering job and cab driver, but your assumption of there are plenty of exceptional accountants in India and exceptional cab drivers in Europe is unfounded. Why would Indian accountants be experts with U.S. accounting practices and tax laws? Would they be amazing at dealing with customers an…

If good engineers from China and India (or really anywhere) are just as good at their subject as anyone else then preference should be given to the citizen, but it's actually the reverse in practice, and that is by design. If the foreign engineers are really that good then why do most of them do low level work with low status positions for 70k/year? Sounds like poor use of the "best and brightest" to me...

When you start looking a the implications of the fallacies of "talent in short supply", all these crazy ideas start to crumble. A large number H1B visas in this country are used by temporary agencies that bring workers to do jobs for low pay. This doesn't seem to be the pool of bright programmers that their proponents have in mind.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#38

Post by zeroxfe »

coliveira wrote: post #21
adevine wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is true, I have found that a developer who can do the following to be very rare: 1. Take a set of requirements, and first identify those reqs for any underspecified elements, or elements where the underlying tech would limit the functionality. 2. Implement the reqs according to the now agreed upon spec 3. Provide adequate documentation and tests for the new implementation. 4. Perhaps most importantly, and…

All of these things could be easily overcome with better training. The way I see it, the software industry in the US invests close to nothing in training and expects to receive "talented" developers by just selecting a small proportion from a large pool of candidates. This is a lazy and irresponsible way to create a workforce. The time and effort they spend in interviewing could be very well spent on teaching best pr…

> All of these things could be easily overcome with better training.

I think 1, 2, and 4, requires lots of real world experience in addition to training.

> The time and effort they spend in interviewing could be very well spent on teaching best practices to new employees

Assuming that just teaching best practices is all that is required, which I strongly disagree with, a lot of companies (especially startups) don't have the time or the resources to burn on extensive training. The marketplace is fiercely competitive, and they typically need people on the ground right away.

> the software industry in the US invests closing to nothing in training

Many large tech organizations (Google, Microsoft, etc.) invest a huge amount in training. The time it takes for a new hire at Google to get productive is usually about 6 months to a year. All still, they have a high hiring bar that focuses on very strong fundamentals. (They also work very closely with universities and colleges on direction, curriculum, and funding.)

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#39

Post by npalli »

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #27
npalli wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For CS graduates, I see the 2014 Salary as $62,103 and the 2015 Salary as $65,004. Which is actually a 6% increase. The 2014 was a 6% increase over 2013. So more than 10% increase in two years. What are you seeing?

I'm comparing computer science majors, which is the majority (80% in 2015) of those in the computer science category. I think this removes outliers like someone getting a bachelors in computer science with a major in financial engineering at Cornell making 200k on Wall Street after graduation. 2014 67,500. 2015 65,004. Down about 3.7%, which adds up over time. Either way, from my point of view, the software "professi…

Well, even in that case, the 2014 salary was a 6.4% raise over 2013. Unusually large increase. So, it certainly "didn't add up over time". Also, strange to read about software profession being dead in water. Pretty much all estimates from BLS show it to be the fastest growing job segment. Which fields (apart from healthcare) are doing better that software?

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#40

Post by seibelj »

reality_czech wrote: post #13
reality_czech wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. We need fewer STEM graduates, and/or more money in science.

Care to explain why this was modded down? I think the lack of resources for new graduate students is sad, and it blights the lives of many people in science. There are too few tenure track spots, so many PhDs have to wait until their 40s to have a normal job and salary. People are not willing to question authority or publish negative results because that would slow down the all-consuming struggle to outcompete the ot…

Perhaps the issue isn't that a STEM career is a vow of poverty. I have met many people who are quite wealthy in STEM. I have personally done very well. In America we have become good at identifying talent, and promoting it. And we reward people higher up much more than people lower down the ladder.

I'm not going to say whether I think it's good or bad, but it's quite clear the the rich are getting richer, while the rest stay the same.

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