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U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

computerworld.com

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Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#21

Post by coliveira »

adevine wrote: post #12
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of programming jobs don't require rock star programmers.

While this is true, I have found that a developer who can do the following to be very rare: 1. Take a set of requirements, and first identify those reqs for any underspecified elements, or elements where the underlying tech would limit the functionality. 2. Implement the reqs according to the now agreed upon spec 3. Provide adequate documentation and tests for the new implementation. 4. Perhaps most importantly, and…

All of these things could be easily overcome with better training. The way I see it, the software industry in the US invests close to nothing in training and expects to receive "talented" developers by just selecting a small proportion from a large pool of candidates. This is a lazy and irresponsible way to create a workforce. The time and effort they spend in interviewing could be very well spent on teaching best practices to new employees, so they would be much more productive, instead of just expecting that they somehow "grok" these concepts from the get go.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#22

Post by m52go »

coliveira wrote: post #17
heapcity wrote: post #5

People with Engineering / Comp. Sci. Degrees are not in short supply. Exceptional engineers and programmers are. Its almost like the difference between kids who want to play football and the people with talent to make it.

You should understand that your logic can be used to prove that any profession is in short supply. Exceptional accountants are in short supply, so we should hire them in droves from India. Exceptional cab drivers are in short supply too, so we should have a visa waiver to bring them from Europe...

Exceptional people in any profession are in short supply. Isn't that a true statement?

Whether that justifies hiring internationally and issuing visa waivers, I'm not sure, but good people sure are hard to find regardless of industry.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#23

Post by throawayalwayz »

secondtimeuse wrote: post #4

To pre-empt anticipated comments Job Outlook "Growth" is change in number of people employed: From the source here are the numbers for other disciplines. Software Developer Job Outlook, 2014-24 17% (Much faster than average) http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... Computer Hardware Engineers Job Outlook, 2014-24 3% http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/computer... Database Admini…

You can see the general trends in this article: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/article/occupational-employ...

One disturbing finding - in the higher income areas, the only areas with strong growth are in healthcare and tech/CS. Almost nothing outside of that.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#24

Post by secondtimeuse »

ydkditfi wrote: post #2

Reminder that "STEM" was just a buzzword designed to flood the skill-intensive labor markets with a generation of idealistic youngsters, all with the intention of driving down wages. There never was a labor shortage, or as it's occasionally framed, a "talent" shortage.

Wages are not being driven down by labor supply. Rather as this particular example clearly shows, they are being driven down by the underlying economics of production. Another example of this trend is Detroit. The United Auto Workers union succeeded in keeping the wages high, but the underlying economics of production destroyed the industry.

The lesson in this scenario, is counter-intuitive. You can regulate, unionize and force wages to stabilize. But that can only help you in short term. On a longer timeframe, innovation and foreign labor catches up and now instead of losing few jobs to talented foreigners you end up losing the entire supply chain. The Software Industry thankfully has been able to resist this trend. The same report shows solid growth across all software related professions.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#25

Post by Cookingboy »

coliveira wrote: post #17
heapcity wrote: post #5

People with Engineering / Comp. Sci. Degrees are not in short supply. Exceptional engineers and programmers are. Its almost like the difference between kids who want to play football and the people with talent to make it.

You should understand that your logic can be used to prove that any profession is in short supply. Exceptional accountants are in short supply, so we should hire them in droves from India. Exceptional cab drivers are in short supply too, so we should have a visa waiver to bring them from Europe...

Your statement is ridiculous. I'm not going to discuss the demand for accountants and cab drivers or the differences between engineering job and cab driver, but your assumption of there are plenty of exceptional accountants in India and exceptional cab drivers in Europe is unfounded.

Why would Indian accountants be experts with U.S. accounting practices and tax laws? Would they be amazing at dealing with customers and auditors? What makes you say they'd be more cost effective than American accountants?

Why would European cab drivers be more effective than American cab drivers? If you put one of those crazy taxi drivers from Eastern Europe here he'd get arrested within hours. Would they provide better customer service when they don't even speak English?

Where as for Engineers, good engineers from China and India are just as good at their subject as anyone and culture barrier is not really a big concern when you are dealing with pure technology, so of course it makes sense to hire top engineers from other countries.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#27

Post by ones_and_zeros »

npalli wrote: post #18
ones_and_zeros wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to these reports, starting salaries for CS graduates are about 4% lower in 2015[0] than in 2014[1]. The recent OPT moves by DHS is proof enough the government is all too willing to help employers in any way possible and isn't interested in actually helping citizens and green card holders fill these jobs. [0] https://www.naceweb.org/uploadedFiles/Content/static-assets/... [1] https://www.naceweb.org/uploaded…

For CS graduates, I see the 2014 Salary as $62,103 and the 2015 Salary as $65,004. Which is actually a 6% increase. The 2014 was a 6% increase over 2013. So more than 10% increase in two years. What are you seeing?

I'm comparing computer science majors, which is the majority (80% in 2015) of those in the computer science category. I think this removes outliers like someone getting a bachelors in computer science with a major in financial engineering at Cornell making 200k on Wall Street after graduation.

2014 67,500. 2015 65,004. Down about 3.7%, which adds up over time.

Either way, from my point of view, the software "profession" is dead in the water unless real change in the industry and our government happens.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#28

Post by ones_and_zeros »

Cookingboy wrote: post #25
coliveira wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should understand that your logic can be used to prove that any profession is in short supply. Exceptional accountants are in short supply, so we should hire them in droves from India. Exceptional cab drivers are in short supply too, so we should have a visa waiver to bring them from Europe...

Your statement is ridiculous. I'm not going to discuss the demand for accountants and cab drivers or the differences between engineering job and cab driver, but your assumption of there are plenty of exceptional accountants in India and exceptional cab drivers in Europe is unfounded. Why would Indian accountants be experts with U.S. accounting practices and tax laws? Would they be amazing at dealing with customers an…

If good engineers from China and India (or really anywhere) are just as good at their subject as anyone else then preference should be given to the citizen, but it's actually the reverse in practice, and that is by design.

If the foreign engineers are really that good then why do most of them do low level work with low status positions for 70k/year? Sounds like poor use of the "best and brightest" to me...

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#29

Post by revelation »

throawayalwayz wrote: post #10
revelation wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the connection between electrical engineering and cheap soldering in China? That's like saying it's cheaper to hire Chinese to type into a keyboard, so programmers are no longer in demand.

OP never mentioned cheap soldering - where did you get that from? The issue (as I understand it) is that the design and manufacture of most electrical components is happening offshore. The biggest fab in the world is in Taiwan. We aren't talking about cheap soldering, we are talking about the semiconductor work that drives most hardware. We are starting to see a few hardware startups but most of the jobs created are…

OP said 'cheaper to manufacture'.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#30

Post by coliveira »

Cookingboy wrote: post #25
coliveira wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should understand that your logic can be used to prove that any profession is in short supply. Exceptional accountants are in short supply, so we should hire them in droves from India. Exceptional cab drivers are in short supply too, so we should have a visa waiver to bring them from Europe...

Your statement is ridiculous. I'm not going to discuss the demand for accountants and cab drivers or the differences between engineering job and cab driver, but your assumption of there are plenty of exceptional accountants in India and exceptional cab drivers in Europe is unfounded. Why would Indian accountants be experts with U.S. accounting practices and tax laws? Would they be amazing at dealing with customers an…

There is nothing ridiculous in this statement. You are talking about "exceptional" workers, not about normal or even bad workers. Exceptional workers are in short supply in any profession. According to the logic of software industry, the solution should be to import workers from other nations, because then we would have access to the best of the best.

Of course it is not like that. Software engineers from India or China are on average as good as the ones in the US. If something could make a difference is education. Now, if engineers in the US are not as good the ones coming from Asia, the country should do something to fix this issues first by paying more and educating them in a superior way.

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