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Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

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Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#291

Post by cpncrunch »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #287
cpncrunch wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are very anti-male. (I thought that was obvious so I didn't mention it, and if you read the wikipedia page or watch the play, you'll see what I mean).

I have not seen the play, but looking at the wikipedia page, they give eight examples of the monologues, and I don't see anything that's obviously anti-male. (unless you're going to get angry about "My Vagina Was My Village, a monologue compiled from the testimonies of Bosnian women subjected to rape camps.")

I have seen the play. The issue is that all the male-female relationships are portrayed as bad, whereas female-female relationships are portrayed as good (even when the girl was underage). This is discussed in the wikipedia page, and it's also pretty obvious if you watch the play.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#292

Post by Nrsolis »

killface wrote: post #286
eropple wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What gives? There are plenty of women doctors now. Why don't men find nursing to be a rewarding and satisfying career option? Not sure why this post is being downvoted. The lack of men in nursing is a real problem in that field, and the post builds up to this in a way I don't necessarily agree with (I think the tech industry's cultural appearance outside of it is completely garbage, and I think most folks know it)…

If you read around on this, you'll read that men in these fields are treated like absolute garbage. Especially nursing.

I met a guy in his 50's who was a retired Sgt. Major from the Army and was working as a flight attendant. He used to get questions from his female coworkers on what it was like to be a gay man in the military. (He wasn't gay)

Male nurses (again, this is anecdote from my sister) are handed the most troublesome and aggravating patients with the assumption that they are willing to be "rough" with them (and the implied threat to the patient is that if they are nice, they get the pretty nurses to come back). They are given the jobs that require heavy lifting (like moving patients) in a medical setting and are subjected to vicious gossip campaigns about their sex lives.

I've worked in an all-female IT department. Six women, one guy. Believe me I've got stories. Not all internet gender-memes are universal. All experiences are valid and inform the debate. Even those that don't conform to the proffered agenda.

We need to be a little more empathic all-around. It's not a contest to see who can be more outraged or oppressed.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#293

Post by justuk »

jazzyk wrote: post #268
jazzyk wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say this a sample of 1 - and from a biased source, too. My daughter graduated form high-school last year. Not only had I not heard a single case of girls being refused entry to anything - most of the times it seemed like my daughter and her female friends (most of them straight "A" students in a very competitive high-school in the Boston, MA area) were almost harassed to join the math club, the robotics club,…

Please do not downvote just because you disagree - it is against the rules. I was questioning the statement "many examples of girls being actively refused...", because the poster provided an example of ONE incident. I provided valid observations from my own experience, providing contrary evidence, just to make a point that we cannot form an opinion based on one event.

Your comments are fine in my book. They reflect an uncomfortable reality that many don't want to accept. And yes, the link isn't the best of sources, their owner courts controversy and has made some terrible mistakes recently.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#294

Post by johnny22 »

mafribe wrote: post #235
normloman wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feminism back then was different than feminism today. Most young feminists oppose alimony, since it assumes women can't support themselves, and is unfair to men. Feminists long ago supposed alimony when most women were house keepers, and alimony was important to giving them independence following divorce. I agree, some of the stuff from the 70s was downright incendiary (shooting Andy Warhol, etc). But feminism has ev…

Most young feminists oppose alimony, Where are all those young feminists campaigning against alimony, for 50/50 shared custody in divorce, equally severe sentencing criminal cases for men and women, draft for women, etc? I'm not meeting them.

before they be drafted, they actaully have to be able to serve in combat roles.. which they now can. This is a recent development in the US.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#295

Post by t0mbstone »

KingMob wrote: post #63
Kenji wrote: post #30

There had been interest, but one of the committers had dismissed the idea out of hand because a woman had proposed it. It was the funniest thing I’d heard in months — I literally doubled over laughing at how nonplussed he must have been to see it not only implemented, but implemented to rousing success. Now that's a woman I respect. Instead of whining around, she just implements it. Suckerpunched the misogynist. You…

So... more perceptive women, who see from the outset that they will have to work twice as hard to be only equally respected in the industry, should shut up and get to work instead of pointing out the unfairness? They should toil for a decade or two in order to have the requisite cred before complaining about injustice? You don't even know your "stop complaining and start doing" solution will work. Since the anti-fema…

I personally know over a hundred male programmers who all started programming as children, at their own accord. They all did it because it was FUN for them. They wrote computer games and tinkered with BASIC. Some of them wrote actual video games for their graphing calculators. They were fascinated by the world of computers, and they didn't CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THOUGHT. That's why many of them were giant nerds and social rejects. They did it because they enjoyed it, period.

I know a couple of women who did the same thing. They were totally awkward nerds during their childhood and teen years, but as adults, they are highly respected software engineers.

If you don't enjoy programming and you start with the premise of thinking of it as "work", and you are so worried about what other people think of you, and you are worried about how much more work you are going to have to do compared to your peers or blah blah blah, you won't go far in the field.

Software engineering isn't a field where you can "complain your way to the top". Your work will speak for itself, and your peers will judge you by that work. Sure, there might be a couple of bad apples spoiling the bunch, but that hasn't been my personal experience. Every competent female programmer I've met has been idolized and welcomed into the community like a rare and extremely valuable unicorn.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#296

Post by DanBC »

hodwik wrote: post #253
ceejayoz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, when diagnosed by a doctor. I'm talking about the "I've never been formally diagnosed but..." and "I think I'm a little on the spectrum" sort of comments that often wind up in threads about programmers being socially awkward. Side note: having Aspergers doesn't make you an asshole.

> " having Aspergers doesn't make you an asshole." My experience of people (medically diagnosed) with Asperger's does not support that statement.

NOW TELL US WHAT YOU THINK OF THE JEWS.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#297

Post by Nadya »

lukeasrodgers wrote: post #40
et1337 wrote: post #20

The only problem I have with feminism is that it's often a movement against men, and not for women. I think they would be a lot more successful doing things to encourage women rather than disparage men. Meredith would not have had to write this article. Of course, it's a lot harder to be positive rather than negative.

I am a man, and feminist, and have spoken with many other feminists over the years, and read a lot of feminist literature, philosophy, cultural criticism, etc. In my experience I'd say less than 1% of feminism/feminists have anything to do with being against men. I'm having a hard time thinking of anything, actually, I could reasonably describe as promoting this view. Maybe some radical stuff from the 70s, like Fires…

The issue is that the 1% are the loudest ones. They drown out the more reasonable ones and are the ones that seem to be more outspoken on Twitter and Tumblr where they receive a wider audience than they deserve.

I have no issue with claiming that "feminazis" are a minority of feminists, as I'm sure they are. But to pretend they don't exist or that they aren't the most outspoken is being in denial of reality. Any memorable contact I've had with feminists has been with that nasty, confrontational "1%".

I'm not alone with these poor interactions - as people are quickly referring to that 1% group as "feminists". Representative of the entire group as a whole, which is a bad image for the more reasonable feminists to hold and why many feminists refuse to call themselves a feminist. They might be mistaken for "that kind" of feminist.

The "fight" has become so polarized by extremists from both sides (MRA and feminist, to clarify) that as an egalitarian I get called a "man-hating feminist" by many MRA and a "disgusting misogynist pig" by many feminists. I find this funny - but also very depressing.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#298

Post by marvin »

new_corp_dev wrote: post #227
antihero wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my word. Not saying I agree with all of them 100%, but you have utterly misconstrued the arguments. > Men are rapists and sexual offenders by default. Nope, the argument is that there is a societal pattern that devalues the severity of rape through humour and other cultural tropes. > Men are violent. The patriarchal "masculinity" foisted upon men is one that is competitive and aggressive. > If a man finds a woman…

>> Men are rapists and sexual offenders by default. > Nope, the argument is that there is a societal pattern that devalues the severity of rape through humour and other cultural tropes. "Teach men not to rape." "Teach your sons to respect women." >> Men are violent. > The patriarchal "masculinity" foisted upon men is one that is competitive and aggressive. Framing masculinity as a negative is anti-male. "Patriarchy"…

Huh. That's the most thorough and concise summary of male gender equality issues I've seen. Thanks for the insights :)

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#299

Post by justuk »

_bfhp wrote: post #41
justuk wrote: post #10

To work in technology, especially programming, you have to put a heck of a lot of effort into the subject. If it's not some legacy technology then that also means learning constantly (on your own initiative). That's what I like about programming, it rewards knowledge and ability - whereas other careers reward other attributes. I look at the Twttier-style feminists (I don't mean the traditional equality types, but the…

If women decide to talk about anything other than their "equality" under the law, they are The Extremists who are "doing it for their own gain"? (What does this phrase mean? I would assume women would be engaging in feminist discourse for their own gain, who else's?)

I don't think you understand because I was being too concise. There are standard feminists and I have no problem with them, in fact, many even bat for both sides, so they will help to promote equality issues that men face.

On Twitter however, there is a more extremist crowd who go after people, manipulate facts, get people fired (who dare to have a different opinion), organise offended mobs, all sorts of unfortunate behaviour. To put it simply: they are pushing their selectively puritan views on bystanders who give in too readily and, in the process, become famous from those actions.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#300

Post by ay483745 »

smacktoward wrote: post #54
venomsnake wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using perpetrator and victims in this context dilutes and devalues the meaning of those words. Also misogyny is not an act, so it cannot be perpetrated. My experience with women in tech is that they are smart, strong, foul mouthed, sarcastic, heavy drinkers and awesome dirty joke storytellers. They are the creme de la creme.

> My experience with women in tech is that they are smart, strong, foul mouthed, sarcastic, heavy drinkers and awesome dirty joke storytellers. In other words, they're "one of the guys." Which kind of summarizes the whole problem -- women who want careers in tech who aren't naturally "one of the guys" either have to learn to pretend that they are, denying their entire personality in order to fit in, or find another l…

Unless my browser's find feature is broken, this is the first time the term "one of the guys" has been introduced to this discussion.

Wouldn't a fairer summary of the whole problem include anyone of any gender who isn't naturally "one of the guys"?

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