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Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

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Re: Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

#291

Post by mihaaly »

jorvi wrote: post #230
jeppester wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way this get better is if the user gets to choose between an OS with ads, lock-in, telemetry etc. and then one with none of that. As it is now, buying a laptop in a store is a "pick your poison" situation.

I mean, this goes way beyond OSes. Look at the mobile YouTube client. The bottom navigation bar has the "+" create button stuffed right in the middle of it, larger than any other button. What % of users creates YouTube content? Probably In general, why don't apps have a "creator" toggle, off-by-default, that optimized the entire UI for viewing / consuming? Just how apps like Uber have either an entire separate app fo…

> I know the reason this happens is because we aren't the real customers of an app. Nor are the creators / partners. The real customers are the shareholders.

Exactly.

I am in an engineering design software developer organization bought by an investor from the founders approaching retirement (they worked 3 decades on this software helping construction engineers designing better homes). Ever since the lead up to the sell - changes were tuned to lure in investors, for the liking of investors - our organization is focusing on maximising revenue. Fast. That is THE focus. New marketing strategy, sales strategy, licensing strategy changes, reshape organization to have more informed decision making in sales (i.e. collecting and processing much more data on increasing number of contacts). Company meetings are about EBITDA, sales goals vs. actual, streamlining organization. Luncbreak discussions evolve around how to license existing features differently so it would trigger/force up/cross sales.

What is not on the agenda for maximising revenue: features and engineering. We are a "sales oriented organization", says our new CEO prodly - brought in during the sale. Addressing user needs and becoming more popular for the eventual income boost takes longer than the sales cycle of less than 5 years (the investor wants to sell the company in 5 years time). Engineering is in the way, accounting books need to look much much better much sooner for the eventual profit. Only sales tactics work here.

I see ralted pattern elsewhere, in tools I have the misfortune to use (SaaS and other subscription based products). Shameless self-promotions (cross-sale) distact your focus all the time, 'features' good for the assumed 'cutting-edge' image of the organization, privacy offensive practices (data for running sales campaigns), 'offerings' that help you with the ideas they force on you for some sizeable extra cost.

It will not end well. Takes long time to fail, but without valuable features and engineering there will be no value left for the users to buy eventually. No user wants top notch marketing, licensing, and sales strategy for the benefit of the organization.

Re: Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

#292

Post by shmeeed »

mexicocitinluez wrote: post #94
Draiken wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody's blaming React. The blame lies on the bad developers that chose it to write a freaking start menu. React is the symptom here, not the cause.

What does "infecting them with React" mean?

Introducing bloat.

Re: Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

#293

Post by aleph_minus_one »

bluescrn wrote: post #218
ptero wrote: post #11

Microsoft lost its way much earlier than 4 years ago. It abused users at the time of Netscape wars and forcing Internet Explorer down people's throats. But they hit an infinite gold mine with government adoption and for the last 30 years no amount of bad engineering was able to shake off government use. Windows 11 is bad? Yes, but did you try Microsoft Teams? The only way to force Microsoft into "users matter" engine…

Windows has historically oscillated between pretty awful and pretty decent. XP was good, Vista was bad, Win7 was good, Win8 was a disaster, Win10 was decent again. Now we're in a low part of the cycle with Win11. Maybe there's another 'good Windows' on the way. But I'm sceptical this time, being in the era of enshittification and the AI slop bubble, where everything is user-hostile by design, where if something seems…

> XP was good, Vista was bad, Win7 was good, Win8 was a disaster, Win10 was decent again. Now we're in a low part of the cycle with Win11.

The cycle is more complicated:

* 2000: exceptional

* XP: bad (the original XP was indeed bad)

* XP SP2 (from a technological perspective basically a new OS): decent

* Vista: bad

* 7: good

* 8: awful (it was so bad that soon 8.1 was introduced)

* 8.1: bad

* 10: controversial (some say it's "decent"; some say it's "bad" because of the magnitude of telemetry (spying) that Windows 10 introduced)

* 11: awful

So, in my opinion it's rather a general downward trend with some overlaid cycle.

Re: Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

#294

Post by microtonal »

alexb_ wrote: post #120
Ranxer wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better yet: don't pick any poison at all -- both System76 and Tuxedo Computers (as examples, sometimes you can buy a latop without an OS and save the money, same goes for PCs) offer laptops with Linux installed: no Microslop tax, and hardware that's guaranteed to work with OSS.

Most people want a computer that works with their software. No, "learn the FOSS version" is not a solution. Especially because nearly everyone has some niche thing they like, some 5% that isn't covered by the FOSS solutions, that only a niche Windows program can actually do correctly. And that doesn't even get into gaming.

Well acktshually, gaming is a really good example. Valve did a lot of good with Proton to the point that a lot of games work and work well.

Perhaps ironically, Wine may be the best stable API on Linux. I'd like to see a concerted and well-funded effort to make Wine run certain Windows applications well. We might not be able to replace the Adobe Suite short-term by a FOSS alternative for most of its users, but we might be able to get Wine to run the Adobe Suite, Affinity Suite, and whatnot well enough to make it possible to switch and keep running these applications.

Re: Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

#295

Post by anthonylevine »

M95D wrote: post #133
mexicocitinluez wrote: post #35

Every product manager at the company in the Windows and MS office products divisions need fired. They have made so many unforced errors in recent years its hard to imagine serious people currently inhabit those roles. Office.com, the cornerstone of Office, is now just a prompt. A prompt!!!! They make it near impossible to manage a small/medium sized company with the unending tweaking, moving, and rebranding of every…

Yeah, but... Did they increase profits and/or stock price or not? That's the only relevant question. Not what happend to Office.com or what you think about their products. Also, you and me are not the customers. Govs and corporations are.

> Not what happend to Office.com or what you think about their products.

I don't understand this point. Are you suggesting that less people being happy with their product and thus less people buying it is not related to the valuation of the company and their stock?

> Also, you and me are not the customers. Govs and corporations are.

Huh?

I get you're trying to make a point about the bottom line, but that doesn't mean the bottom line is impervious to bad product decisions or that the people who are paying for their products are not in fact their customers.

Re: Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

#296

Post by blenderob »

afandian wrote: post #206
arowthway wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't claim it's inapropriate then what's left to agree about?

There are all kinds of language registers for communication. From formal business speak to 'locker room banter'. What is appropriate or otherwise depends entirely on the participants of the conversation. So, it depends on what kind of conversation we're trying to have. I think this post's usage is meant deliberately to be a bit edgy, to illustrate how badly Microsoft has behaved. An encouragement to be mindful of lan…

> An encouragement to be mindful of language, and therefore discuss what shared context we're trying to build, shouldn't be so controversial in a self-professed 'thoughtful' [0] forum.

I don't understand how HN's news guidelines apply to a blogger writing an article on their own blog. The controversial language was found in the article. It wasn't found in the thread you're replying to.

Re: Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

#297

Post by lynx97 »

hootz wrote: post #248
alexb_ wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even skipping the first step (which requires a second readme ) the next step involves opening a terminal. Instant fail. The entire point of an operating system is to make computers usable without knowing how they work, what a file is, what a command is, or having to look up anything. If something needs to be done, it needs a GUI. Linux is an important operating system, but anyone under the delusion that it is desktop…

I agree that most users won't be able to follow Winapps' guide, but "The entire point of an operating system is to make computers usable without knowing how they work" is just false. That is the point of an OS for computer illiterates, not the "entire point of an operating system".

Arguably, the vast majority of users are "computer illiterates", and an OS should cater to the majority. So in a sense, OP has a point.

Re: Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

#298

Post by mihaaly »

baq wrote: post #22
Macha wrote: post #7

It’s quite common for companies to work their way up to the line of the most user hostile version of their product that users will tolerate. Especially with software where they can just go flip a switch and turn off whatever feature did cross the line but keep everything they gained by inching up to the line, which seems to inevitably result in things like the condition of windows 11. I think the only way this gets b…

> It’s quite common for companies to work their way up to the line of the most user hostile version of their product that users will tolerate. this is in general how the market for pretty much everything works (sometimes 'users' are replaced by 'the regulator', but it doesn't matter too much). lesson in there is 'majority of users don't care nearly as much as you think', usually.

Things forced on you is not market. You are not talking about market rules at all. This is not it!

Re: Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

#299

Post by neves »

For me the worst is Microsoft Start news. I've already turned it off multiple times and it always come back.

To add insult to injury, it always displays terrible gossip, sports or far right news.

If any developer that works in MS news service is reading this message, please know that I hate you.

Re: Microsoft's "fix" for Windows 11

#300

Post by aleph_minus_one »

swiftcoder wrote: post #287
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then at least let the company that makes your niche software know that you want a Linux version of it, even if you don't use Linux (yet). We need to solve this chicken / egg problem. To solve the chicken/egg problem, the GNU/Linux distributions should generate some very (in particular binary) stable interface for writing applications (including GUI applications) on GNU/Linux - like WinAPI on Windows. With "stable"…

It's an old joke, but it's also accurate in this case - isn't what you are asking for just WINE?

> isn't what you are asking for just WINE

An operating system is a style of thinking about your work. WINE is a way to get Windows applications to run (by now run decently) under GNU/Linux. These Windows applications are nevertheless foreign bodies in the whole kind of thinking which GNU/Linux is built around.

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