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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.) This is being overstated. There's not any hard evidence suggesting he's been cheating over the board, and for such a potentially career-ruining allegation you'd want some pretty strong evidence.

What does the expression "over the board" mean?

offline chess, in person with a real board.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#292
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hans made a comment after their game but before the drama - "Must be embarrassing for the World Champion to lose to such an idiot like me" which couldve easily tilted Magnus more than a simple loss with black (rather than white) or draw with someone like Pragg.

this is not an online game where people rage quit. Carlsen himself said something akin to "Watzkin didn't have thick enough skin to become chess world champion", if you knew a bit about chess you wouldn't suggest this silly explanation

Fischer (e.g. 1975), Kasparov (e.g. screw you I'll make my own federation with hookers and blow) are both as prominent players to do things even more qualifying of a ragequit than this though there's plenty of examples more similar to this event.

Suggesting that pro chess players don't tilt is absurd given that we've seen it happen plenty of times, often after losses.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#293
post #2

For context, Magnus withdrew from a major tournament last month after losing to Hans. He has not made a statement, but it is understood that he suspects Hans of cheating. Hans has admitted to cheating online, though he denies cheating in person. As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's…

> (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.)

Ken Regan, who is the world expert on identifying engine-assisted cheating in chess, disagrees [1].

No offense to random YouTube creator but I'll trust Regan's analysis over Chess fan MWP.

[1] https://en.chessbase.com/post/is-hans-niemann-cheating-world...

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#294
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that cheating in over the board tournaments is hardly possible with all the security measures that are now taken by event organizers. If you suspect cheating you must come up with some explanation how exactly it is happening.

Do they Xray their clothing and shoes? Is there an anal inspection of sorts? Do they ban all RF devices and run wide-spectrum spectrum analysers?

Aren't you going a bit over the top with these suggestions?

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#295

I don't follow chess. I've heard of Carlsen in passing but that's about it. As far as I can make up from this story, Niemann admitted to cheating online as a child (not exactly uncommon) but as of yet there's not an ounce of proof that he cheated against Carlsen. What I don't understand is that people just take Carlsen's side without any proof. Some guy beat Carlsen so he must be cheating? What kind of reasoning is t…

There are other suspicious things as well like fast unusual jump in rating, not having any formal training or group, few suspicious interviews, chess.com saying he cheated in more rounds than he admitted to and not to mention proved cheating online. While any one of them is not a proof of cheating, he has got many unusual things about him.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#296
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see what's wrong with Magnus throwing his points away to satisfy his preference. Losing games on purpose is unsportsmanlike. Now, if Magnus has good reason to believe that he's just countering bad sportmanship with his own brand of it, that could perhaps be justified in some circumstances. But to the general audience, it makes chess look really bad.

> Losing games on purpose is unsportsmanlike. So is cheating. At least this is blindingly obvious.

It's unsportsmanlike to the players in the tournament who are not cheating, especially in most tournaments with top Grandmasters because those are generally round robin tournaments. All those non-cheating players have to play Magnus too.

In the few high level tournaments that are knock out or Swiss system it would be less unsportsmanlike because in those most other players won't have to play Magnus.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the chess community decides to trust Magnus and his credentials without any proof, that's their prerogative, the concept of criminal innocence doesn't come into play at all here. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not just a legal concept but a social norm. I'm a big Carlsen fan, but that same logic, applied to other domains, has led to witch-hunts throughout history, or character assassination/reputational damag…

> "Innocent until proven guilty" is not just a legal concept but a social norm. I think the question is whether it ought to be a social norm. What do you think of Prince Andrew? Hasn't been proven guilty. Should we just go about our business with him as usual? What about everyone else who settles a case? I think of "Innocent until proven guilty" as a sort of viral trope. People think it's the norm, so when the questi…

Upvoted you, people shouldn't downvote perfectly fine comments.

> What do you think of Prince Andrew? Hasn't been proven guilty. Should we just go about our business with him as usual? What about everyone else who settles a case?

We have circumstantial evidence that he did it; testimonies from victims, who have made credible claims, etc. There's also a difference between making sure you're not victimized (e.g. being careful around alleged abusers, or Carlsen being suspicious about a suspected cheater), but that doesn't apply to internet gossipers.

And the public's reaction to Prince Andrew would be different if he was a nobody, who was publicly vilified by the most influential people, with zero evidence available to the public; compared to him being a powerful person, who is publicly protected by the most influential people, with plenty of circumstantial public evidence. I think he's guilty, but there's context to my belief.

What irks me is when people take sides in "he said she said" conflicts (i.e. with zero public evidence) between two people they've never met. "Innocent until proven guilty only applies to courts!" is reasoning I've seen far too often regarding accusations published in some random tweet, and it's really quite ugly.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#298
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can it be someone from his own team? If someone from his own team leaked the prep to Niemann and Niemann prepared against it, that isn't even cheating on Niemann's part?

> that isn't even cheating on Niemann's part? Has Magnus said he's cheating?

magnus hasn't said anything

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#299
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, people who do do deceitful stuff - steal, lie and cheat - act quite predictably when confronted with their allegations: 1. I didn't cheat! 2. Ok yeah I cheated those times but I never did it again 3. GOTO 1 It seems we've gone through this cycle once already - where Niemann has admitted that he was caught cheating on two occasions in the past. And now chess.com are saying actually he has cheated mor…

This is exactly how it works. It's disappointing how many ifs and buts people are giving him just because they don't particularly like Carlsen. It really shows. Cheaters are serial cheaters, and they will deny deny deny. The problem is really that he has admitted to cheating more than once. There is a reason why sports and just about everything else employs zero-tolerance policies: It doesn't just happen once.

> Cheaters are serial cheaters, and they will deny deny deny

Please cite research on that.

> There is a reason why sports and just about everything else employs zero-tolerance policies.

The sport doesn't employ zero-tolerance. The verdicts issued by WADA for cheating (doping) in sports are usually a suspension for ~1-6 years (out of the top of my head).

For some e-sports (e.g. ESIC and CS:GO), the verdicts are similar: a few months to maybe 2-3 years suspension from official tournaments.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing that can help Magnus’s case because Magnus has made no case. He played Hans at the meltwater tournament, and beat him. A few weeks later, he played Hans again at the Sinquefeld cup, and lost to him. After which he posted a cryptic Jose Mourinho meme. And a few weeks later he played Hans online and resigned in 1 move. What’s Magnus’s case? What has he said his case is? What’s his argument? That losing…

>After which he posted a cryptic Jose Mourinho meme AND left the tournament, which he never did before, and it almost never happens that someone leaves the tournament without stating why. Magnus case is, that he accuses Niemann of cheating, it is very simple. :-) He didn't say that, but he acted like that, he communicated it with his actions.

> He didn't say that, but he acted like that, he communicated it with his actions.

couldn't it be something else that is causing grief between the two?

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