Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

insidermag.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 715 posts

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#291

Post by praptak »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #235

I mentor college students as part of a structured mentoring program. Some of the young people who come through the group have wildly pessimistic views on the world, especially as it pertains to jobs and capitalism. Part of our job is to defuse some of the more self-defeating views, but it’s increasingly difficult to compete against the non-stop onslaught of pessimism that comes from their subreddits and Twitter follo…

> /r/antiwork on Reddit, that have a stated goal of ending work

This got me interested, so I checked it out. The top thread is literally about r/antiwork NOT having this goal: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/o032ek/for_anyone...

And "not wasting your life working for something you don't believe in" is quite a different beast. I believe even Paul Graham could say this, albeit with totally different idea about what you should do instead.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#292

Post by throwaway894345 »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #86
throwaway894345 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success stories, but it seems more and more people are seeing through the illusion. I don't think we can conclude that from anything. It could just as easily be that our previous optimism was warranted but we've become influenced by a more pessimistic media narrative. To be clear, I don't have a position because there doesn't seem to be…

It sounded like an intuition rather than a conclusion. It’s an intuition that’s very familiar to those born without a leg up. There’s always hope. This isn’t about hope. It’s about seeing things as they are, as the parent suggested.

> It sounded like an intuition rather than a conclusion.

Fair enough.

> It’s an intuition that’s very familiar to those born without a leg up.

I was born to a blue collar family and I lived in a trailer until I was 6. I don't share the intuition.

I worked through college while my classmates skipped class, spent loads at starbucks, restaurants, etc. I double majored and graduated with a fraction of the debt of my peers, and I picked majors that are likely to pay well. I now make multiples of what my parents made together. N=1 and all that, but it's not "intuition of those born without a leg up".

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#293

Post by 52-6F-62 »

hallway_monitor wrote: post #258
52-6F-62 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re not counting, and what most people miss, is that not only are you at a disadvantage due to lack of resources, but there are many people in positions of authority, power, or just plain tenure who believe that accumulated wealth is a reflection of the wealth of soul. If you are below them in birth, and didn’t chance yourself to some higher strata by the time they grace your presence, they tend to believe yo…

Your last sentence confuses me. If someone believes in the great meritocracy then they must agree that wealthier people are better people, then it seems obvious that most people in the world feel this way, whether they admit it or not, and even whether they realize it themselves or not. The princess marrying the pauper is a nice fairy tale but how often does it actually happen in reality?

Fair point—that line was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

But I'm comfortable living with contradictions, so I do believe there is a meritocracy, but I don't believe it's total.

Only wading in the shallows because I actually have some work to get to today, but to clarify by example:

I'm sure most North Americans around this forum grew up hearing lines like "you don't want to end up a janitor". Personally, I've seen episodes like factory supervisors ignore physical health requests because their faithful hourly workers were "probably just trying to get off easy" (no, they ended up losing their job when their back gave out). Obviously they were only a line hand, so they're probably a dirtbag, as the line of reasoning followed in that situation.. and so on.

Definitely not touching the hot mess of "marrying upward" or other potential confidence games.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#294

Post by oblio »

caf wrote: post #281
fullstop wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side there are plenty of examples of kids being pushed into higher education who would have been much better off going to a trade school. Working as a plumber, an electrician, or a carpenter can be quite lucrative, and they are certainly things that society needs. Being pushed into higher ed is so much different than having an internal drive to do it. I'm glad that she's doing well and hopefully they can…

Working as a plumber, an electrician, or a carpenter can be quite lucrative, and they are certainly things that society needs. I hear this kind of thing, but I have to say it is less than convincing when most of the people saying it don't seem to be sending their kids to trade school.

Well, my logic is: if you go to university (ideally STEM) and have a modicum of practical skills, how hard really is it to become a plumber later in life? I'd imagine plumbing studies are shorter, some stuff you can probably transfer over from your university studies and you can probably apprentice reasonably easily somewhere.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#295

Post by drakythe »

whoneedswork wrote: post #271
mc32 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think implicit in the post is that parents’ parents could have lived where education was too far away physically, took away from a pool of labor, etc. Conversely, we have kids today, who for whatever reason have the opportunity to get an education but are sidetracked by entertainment and other things that can derail their long term prospects despite more being available to them. (Contrast with kids in third world c…

[flagged]

You pretty clearly have no idea WTF you're talking about.

r/antiwork is a response to rampant capitalism rewarding parasitic billionaires, not some idea that people don't want to do "anything meaningful" with their lives.

Have a nice rest of your day.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#296

Post by yoz-y »

frockington1 wrote: post #123
paulluuk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up. However, is the same true for purchasing power? Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms. And yet toda…

30 year olds with masters degrees who are still living with their parents? There must be additional information because this is just crazy. In 'flyover' country you don't see this. I'm assuming this is California or NY?

There might also be a skew due to COVID. Many single people moved back in with their parents because why not, no rent to pay and you can WFH anyways. And it’s not like the social life would go anywhere.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#297

Post by [deleted] »

whoneedswork wrote: post #271
mc32 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think implicit in the post is that parents’ parents could have lived where education was too far away physically, took away from a pool of labor, etc. Conversely, we have kids today, who for whatever reason have the opportunity to get an education but are sidetracked by entertainment and other things that can derail their long term prospects despite more being available to them. (Contrast with kids in third world c…

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#298

Post by jellicle »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

That may once have been true, but it's certainly not true today. Kids born in the 2000s can expect to earn less than their parents, as income has been pushed up to the ultra-wealthy.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/social-mobility-upwar...

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#299

Post by faitswulff »

kh1 wrote: post #205
faitswulff wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wall Street Journal has a great infographic here comparing how many hours of worth it would take to pay median rent today versus in 1968: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-much-does-the-federal-minim... Spoiler: it’s not pretty.

I just looked at graphics, but that's comparing minimum wage against various goods, isn't it? So it would be interesting to see the comparison between median wage and rent, etc. From the data, however, it looks like income inequality expanded quite a bit.

The second infographic compares rent.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#300

Post by LeifCarrotson »

Guthur wrote: post #227
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

Statistically next to nobody goes from anywhere to billionaire. There are 2,755 billionaires in the world and 7.6 billion individuals, thats around 2.7 million to one. Not great odds for anyone to be frank. Also is it any wonder people believe that they can't get anywhere when they are constantly told, they can't get anywhere. Seems a little self fullfilling to be frank.

The odds are pretty good if your parents are billionaires - a not particularly rigorous search suggests that some 1,186 of those inherited their wealth or 'self made' an empire already worth hundreds of millions into a billion.

It's disingenuous to suggest that a minimum wage worker with no safety net isn't getting anywhere because they're not trying, and to contrast their accomplishments with someone who started with wealthy, powerful parents.

For some, the adage "shoot for the moon - if you miss, you'll land among the stars" is fine. Take some risks, start a business, make a bet; the worst that can happen is you have to declare bankruptcy and move into a family member's vacation home. For others, the adage is more like "don't you dare shoot for the moon, if you miss, you and your family will be hungry and cold in a homeless shelter".

Post reply on HN