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A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

lkml.iu.edu

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Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#291
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone prefers softer conduct The big issue I see people reacting to is profanity. You can be as hard on someone, given the nature of the infraction, without using profane language or denigrating someone. If they don't comply, threaten exactly what Linus threatened, no more commits will be accepted. While I don't disagree with Linus' right to speak as he does. He can be just as effective without the type of lan…

In my culture we use what you'd call profanity as punctuation marks. I feel it is imperialist for people from one culture to want people from other cultures to adhere to their way of communicating.

I understand where you're coming from. It's important to take the cultures and expectations of each participant if one's goal is to communicate effectively. And that goes both ways. Both the speaker and the listener need to take this into account. If one's dogmatic, believing that requiring any change on their own part to accommodate the listener, that gets in the way of the goal of communicating effectively, just as expecting a speaker to conform to one's own standards as a listener. It really needs to be looked at from each person's perspective.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. This is a valid case to call someone out. Not just for Linus, but for anyone.

Yep. Not by cussing at them or raging like a toddler. If this was some Joe Schmo at a random company he'd be fired for treating co-workers like that. Since it's Linus it's hero worship.

And if an employee pushed for 3 weeks ignoring the company's leader's best-known rule for not screwing over customers - what does that say about the employee? How would you deal with it if they haven't listened to anyone else? It's like you're not even reading anyone's responses to understand why they disagree with you...

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have lots of theories about what would or wouldn't make Linux work, but the facts on the ground are that Linux is wildly successful, and Linus behaves as he does. The latter has been an integral part of the former.

Correlation, however, is not causation. You can't say that Linux is wildly successful because Linus behaves as he does.

https://xkcd.com/552/

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. This is a valid case to call someone out. Not just for Linus, but for anyone.

Yep. Not by cussing at them or raging like a toddler. If this was some Joe Schmo at a random company he'd be fired for treating co-workers like that. Since it's Linus it's hero worship.

Not sure where you're working but in every US company I've ever worked for management behaved like Linus and worse and it wasn't them getting fired.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many cases where continuing with invalid data is much worse than a parse error. Perhaps that's less likely in this case (hopefully your credit card payment doesn't depend on the values in /proc/ /stat), but as a rule, silently continuing with meaningless data is scary.

Not when the application was to supposed to handle the invalid data anyway before. Because you had to handle the zero case before right? The idea is that in the worst case you get an error message, not an altogether crash.

[deleted]

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#296

Linus is such a breath of fresh air. I'll take an honest, emotional, impossible to misconstrue, ass-chewing over the alternatives. Too often there's an avoidance of straightforward, blunt speech that conveys exactly what is meant. I really have better things to do than try to parse nonspecific beating-around-the-bush and deconstruct word-castles.

There are people who have the mental tools for being in a conversation where someone displays anger and aggression [0], and those who don't. One person's world-endingly stressful and uncomfortable interaction is another's colorful productive disagreement. The people who don't have those tools control the horizontal, they control the vertical too. If they say your personality is wrong by definition, who are you to que…

For me, it is really the circuitousness that people will go through to avoid saying anything that might be taken as damaging to somebody's feels. It's exhausting, and confusing, and I wish people would just cut the shit and say what they mean.

But my dad was ex-military, then a logging contractor, then a heavy equipment mechanic, and I grew up working with him. When there are firearms, chainsaws, bulldozers, or heavy objects dangling from cranes, you don't have the luxury of couching your criticism in weasel-words or crafting the compliment-criticism sandwich. If somebody is fucking up, you let them know in no uncertain terms, because somebody could get hurt.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#297
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equating this email to a parent beating their child is a false equivalency. Firstly, because Linus has not physically attacked the developer, and secondly, because the developer--unlike the child--should know better. This is more like Gordon Ramsay going off on a chef who has just told a customer off for not liking his burnt toast.

I agree with the first part, but not with the second part. I believe equating John's behaviour to a chef who has told a customer off is just as distant as mine. If I was looking exact equivalent, I would just send the same link to the same email. I am using empathy here. I don't know you guys, you may feel ok if you get shouted when you do wrong when contributing to a project, but I would feel bad, and as a human, I…

I would argue that the best response to an expert telling you that you are wrong is to fix the problem. While your feelings do matter, the stability of the kernel matters more, and you cannot discount Linus's message because you think it is too emotional in tone. At the end of the day, Linus is right, Linus created the project, Linus is leading the project, and he is using strong language to inform you that he needs John to change his approach to this problem for the sake of the project.

On a slightly more pragmatic note, Linus would not be angry if John hadn't been trying to break Rule Number 1 for three weeks in a row, so an alternative solution is to simply not break the rules. Granted, if you disagree with the rules on a fundamental level, that doesn't work--so, third solution: leave and start your own project.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's being stupid, using words he doesn't understand (He already failed in the usage of the word 'regression.') He's throwing a childish tantrum and THAT is the primary reason I won't touch Linux (well that and I can hardlock any Linux system by making a 4kb encrypted RAMDisk, and it's been left unfixed for years, allowing me to find dozens of nice memory issues, [especially with the buffer cache,] and most of these…

Are you able to provide a patch for the aforementioned elementary grade mistakes to the open source kernel project without introducing any kind of regression in user space?

That's not my job. I report bugs. I'm not getting paid to do that so doing so in my free time to be ignored is a waste of my productivity. I reported the bare-basic problem inherent in the buffer cache which lead to my kernel hardlock exploit and was summarily ignored as non-critical.

So I've done my job. It's on Linus now to eat crow and get shit done. That's obviously not happening with his attitude.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#299
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way he speaks in this email is ugly, wrong If that's the way problems get solved, then he's right in using it If you ask nicely and people don't do it, or keep ignoring it then you up the tone

And to the people who actually help you. Not only your users are important, people who help you are also important. > If you ask nicely and people don't do it, or keep ignoring it then you up the tone I am sure it can be done much better with a little effort. Being smart, or being someone who has done something important shouldn't exempt you from being nice to other people.

>Being smart, or being someone who has done something important shouldn't exempt you from being nice to other people. Absolutely. However, not being nice to someone does not mean you are wrong. One can be an asshole and still be correct, and one can have one's feelings hurt by the truth (indeed, psychologists will tell you that if it upsets you it absolutely is something you need to dig deeper on).

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the problem with profanity, different strokes for different folks.

Profanity by itself isn't the problem. I don't have a problem with shit piss cunt fuck either. It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. I'm sorry that Sarah Sharp is no longer maintaining the USB modules because of Linus's attitude,…

Let's put this in a vacuum (since I'm not too familiar with the whole saga over time and I'd like to see an honest response.)

> It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors.

I'll quote bits one at a time.

> It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed

What if they are? How do you handle the situation?

> and other ad-hominem angry insults

I would argue that saying some patch is worthless and cannot be fixed isn't ad-hominem.

But I'd like to get your view, since it seems you've read a lot on the topic and care about the OSS community.

(Edit: As an aside, my personal policy in this regard is temperance in my reaction, and this is especially easy when written.)

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