Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

lkml.iu.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 408 posts

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#221

Post by tertius »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #206
rthomas6 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because Linus is effective at communicating what he wants doesn't mean his way is the best way. Why wouldn't it be even better if he alienated contributors less?

Because high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors. If someone prefers softer conduct, they are free to fork the kernel and start their own efforts.

> If someone prefers softer conduct

The big issue I see people reacting to is profanity. You can be as hard on someone, given the nature of the infraction, without using profane language or denigrating someone.

If they don't comply, threaten exactly what Linus threatened, no more commits will be accepted.

While I don't disagree with Linus' right to speak as he does. He can be just as effective without the type of language he uses.

Some people don't care about "foul language" some others clearly do...

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#222

Post by otabdeveloper1 »

13of40 wrote: post #214
megaman22 wrote: post #164

Linus is such a breath of fresh air. I'll take an honest, emotional, impossible to misconstrue, ass-chewing over the alternatives. Too often there's an avoidance of straightforward, blunt speech that conveys exactly what is meant. I really have better things to do than try to parse nonspecific beating-around-the-bush and deconstruct word-castles.

I think a good leader could get the point across without resorting to bullying.

Your comment deserves a 4chan-style meme arrow:

> getting an incompetent bozo fired

> "bullying"

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#223

Post by adamnemecek »

13of40 wrote: post #214
megaman22 wrote: post #164

Linus is such a breath of fresh air. I'll take an honest, emotional, impossible to misconstrue, ass-chewing over the alternatives. Too often there's an avoidance of straightforward, blunt speech that conveys exactly what is meant. I really have better things to do than try to parse nonspecific beating-around-the-bush and deconstruct word-castles.

I think a good leader could get the point across without resorting to bullying.

The guy does seem like he was shifting blame around.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#224

Post by ams6110 »

13of40 wrote: post #214
megaman22 wrote: post #164

Linus is such a breath of fresh air. I'll take an honest, emotional, impossible to misconstrue, ass-chewing over the alternatives. Too often there's an avoidance of straightforward, blunt speech that conveys exactly what is meant. I really have better things to do than try to parse nonspecific beating-around-the-bush and deconstruct word-castles.

I think a good leader could get the point across without resorting to bullying.

Nothing in TFA is bullying. Impolite, rude, brash yes.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#225

Post by vorpalhex »

13of40 wrote: post #214
megaman22 wrote: post #164

Linus is such a breath of fresh air. I'll take an honest, emotional, impossible to misconstrue, ass-chewing over the alternatives. Too often there's an avoidance of straightforward, blunt speech that conveys exactly what is meant. I really have better things to do than try to parse nonspecific beating-around-the-bush and deconstruct word-castles.

I think a good leader could get the point across without resorting to bullying.

I wouldn't call it bullying. He isn't attacking the committer personally or due to anything outside the issue. He isn't hounding the committer.

Bluntly telling someone they really screwed up and need to stop denying it isn't bullying. Someone being mean isn't bullying.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#226

Post by kadenshep »

lightedman wrote: post #180
kadenshep wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with how he's saying it. He's being honest. He's letting you know where he stands and what the rule is, without any kind of hidden message or room for interpretation. The other guy? Not being so honest.

He's being stupid, using words he doesn't understand (He already failed in the usage of the word 'regression.') He's throwing a childish tantrum and THAT is the primary reason I won't touch Linux (well that and I can hardlock any Linux system by making a 4kb encrypted RAMDisk, and it's been left unfixed for years, allowing me to find dozens of nice memory issues, [especially with the buffer cache,] and most of these…

Are you able to provide a patch for the aforementioned elementary grade mistakes to the open source kernel project without introducing any kind of regression in user space?

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#227

Post by zimpenfish »

colechristensen wrote: post #220
jordigh wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matt Mackall, another cranky kernel hacker, showed me a lot about how it's possible to say "no" to many eager changes that would have broken Mercurial and not be yelling obscenities about it. Linus is no role model. His imprecations are not what make Linux work.

You can have lots of theories about what would or wouldn't make Linux work, but the facts on the ground are that Linux is wildly successful, and Linus behaves as he does. The latter has been an integral part of the former.

Correlation, however, is not causation. You can't say that Linux is wildly successful because Linus behaves as he does.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#228

Post by gmfawcett »

tome wrote: post #135
pjmlp wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All my favorite languages are typed and I do agree with him.

Really? How so? If you have abstract types then you can easily make internal changes without making those changes visible externally.

As a simple example, suppose I swap out one container type with another one in the internal code. Both implement the same interface/traits, so the change isn't visible to users. But the time complexity of the container operations are different on the new type, and the user was depending upon the time characteristics of the old container. E.g., deletions are now O(n) instead of O(1). I've violated a user expectation without breaking type safety.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#229

Post by vorpalhex »

res0nat0r wrote: post #215
TallGuyShort wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has previously been unnecessarily insulting, which I don't excuse, but in this case someone caused a problem, and after 3 weeks still does not understand how serious a problem it is. He's addressing it bluntly because that is what is required. He's not being unreasonable.

If it was anyone else we'd be calling them an utter asshole and then citing them as reasons why Silicon Valley has a reputation for . Linus is still a dick and it isn't funny, refreshing or cool.

Nope. This is a valid case to call someone out. Not just for Linus, but for anyone.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#230

Post by Bartweiss »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #54
raverbashing wrote: post #47

I'm glad Linus has this attitude and it is unfortunate it's not present in some other places Though it is annoying if you're at the receiving end of it, own up (the opposite of what the patch author was doing)

Annoying and hurtful, yes, but at the same time, he's not wrong - you fucked up, you did bad and you should feel bad. The upside of this rant too is that the author is not "fired", as such, but told to shape up or gtfo. In a lot of companies, mistakes are accepted, fixed, and forgiven without adding a bit of emotion to it. I think adding this kind of emotion will have a bigger impact and will make the receiving end d…

Pleasantly, the patch author seems to have taken it pretty well and apologized, while Linus further explained his view with a bit less zeal. Looks like a pretty good ending all around.

There's room to talk about how much zeal is too much, but it certainly seems far better than the "silence till firing" approach people describe at some big companies.

Post reply on HN