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A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

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Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#281
post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

A company will hire and keep only those who are able and willing to worry about company's issues. For such employees it makes sense to pay them decent wage so they are free to worry about company. How should government fire citizen who are not performing well?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human nature is people wanting to reap rewards for their work (that includes having private property). UBI doesn't take away that. Speaking of "removing all incentives to do something useful in the long term", this is what capitalism does today. There aren't many businesses or even people caring about long-term in their lives, because you have to pay your rent next month, you have to be competitive today, you have to…

> Human nature is people wanting to reap rewards for their work (that includes having private property). UBI doesn't take away that. How are you going to pay for UBI? With taxes. If you already receive a tax free UBI, this means the percentage of taxes on your extra income will drastically increase (with factors, not percentages). This means that when you work for someone else (sell your time/products), only a tiny p…

Good point! More stay at home parents is another benefit of BI that I haven't even thought of yet. I get more sold on this idea the more I read about it.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#283
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In The Netherlands we are already spending that amount, so it doesn't need to come from anywhere. We spend well over 1000/mo on services for unemployed and poor people. We send social workers, health care all sorts of things. The general theory is that if we would supply these people with basic income they will live healthier lifestyles and not need so much care. In the long run it's thought basic income might even s…

The problem is, all the calculation I have seen so far (by different members and friends of the Pirate Party Germany) included also the benefits for people with disabilities, and other illnesses. It included also the money currently used to support the public health care system and other social benefits. If you remove all those also to finance basic income, then you are taking the money who really need it. If you are…

Ah no. Some benefits would become obsolete, The Netherlands already gives basic income to artists and people with work prohibiting disabilities for example. But it's obviously not a substitute for health insurance and other public health care systems.

The idea is that it would reduce the expense on health care services because people would become ill less often. Whether this is true remains to be tested on a larger scale, but I think some research has pointed to this being the case.

I think you are right, 500 euro would be extra spending money, not a basic income and quite possibly would have the reverse effect. It's why the basic income in Utrecht is 900, which is enough to live off as a single person.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#284
post #280
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because none of the countries trying it were or are advanced capitalistic economies before the revolution revolution was the least common way to turn communist. Far more common was "forced by nearby communist country" Also for example Czechoslovakia was advanced capitalist country. It's often overlooked - it was very industrialized country, with long capitalistic traditions, and democracy before WW2. It also went t…

> Czechoslovakia was advanced capitalist country Did it have sufficient over-production that redistribution would remove "common wants" for everyone? As early as 1845, Marx set that out as a central criteria that would have to be met before a socialist revolution would have any hope of succeeding. > We just don't like to share, as a species. And in fact, this is a central aspect of Marx' argument for socialist revolu…

> Nothing assumes people wanting to share.

It assumes once workers won the surpluses won't decrease.

This turned out to be false assumption, because people don't like to share, so they don't work as well if they only get part of the fruits of their work, as they would if they got most of the fruits of their work for themselves.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#285
post #98
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

> Communism (Which is what this is), has failed. Why this generation seems determined to try it again is beyond me. A bit of a stretch there and i should know i was born in a communist country. The reason Communism has failed is because of the lack of checks and balances on power compounded with corruption not because of concepts like this. > This is about stealing money from the successful, and giving it to everyone…

>> Communism (Which is what this is), has failed.

> communist country. The reason Communism has failed is > because of the lack of checks and balances on power > compounded with corruption not because of concepts like

Socialism did not fail because of corruption - capitalism has this too. Socialism failed because of its inability to put pricing on a product due to lack of a market place. On the other hand, Socialism had tremendous growth. Hitler (another socialist) said, "The Soviet Union is a rotten house - kick in the front door and the whole house will collapse". This was true in the WWI but in WWII the Soviet Union was a different country, they probably had a higher GDP than Germany. Why? Because Stalin achieved growth rates that may have dwarfed China (controversial, but he may have achieved up to 500% Growth in 13 years based on some estimates).

So socialism failed, back to capitalism. Yes, capitalism survived. But how much longer?

"There is No Steady State Economy (except at a very basic level)" http://ourfiniteworld.com/2011/02/21/there-is-no-steady-stat...

Limits to Growth–At our doorstep, but not recognized http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-12/limits-to-growt...

Wealth And Energy Consumption Are Inseparable http://www.declineoftheempire.com/2012/01/wealth-and-energy-...

Galactic-Scale Energy http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-e...

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#286
post #52
post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

> The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream.

I'm sure you can cite evidence of this claim from basic income pilot programs, then? (there has been a few).

> Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit others is a bit far fetched.

Here we agree, but it's beside the point as there's a very good reason for them to do things to benefit themselves that will have the side effect of benefiting others:

They'll make more money. The point of basic income programs is to create a lower threshold that is predictable, simple to administer and unconditional. It's not to create a ceiling on income.

> Communism (Which is what this is), has failed.

This is quite comical, because it has nothing to do with communism, and indeed the idea predates socialism by about 300 years.

It has over the centuries had supporters spanning large parts of the political spectrum. One of the important aspects of basic income is that it is not particularly ideological in its basic form:

There's no implication that the basic income is meant for widespread redistribution, though some proponents wants it to be high enough for that. Many proponents, in fact, specifically makes the argument that done properly it may potentially reduce government expenditure by eliminating a whole host of benefits programs that are expensive to run and hence cut administrative costs. This is an argument often made by liberalists (as in classical liberals by the European definition) for example.

In fact, if you were to push for a form of basic income that would be high enough to make it something most people would happily live on if they could otherwise work, it would be fundamentally at odds with Marx ideas of communism. In "Critique of The Gotha Programme" he skewered the idea that communism involved equal pay, by pointing out that this would be extremely unfair:

People have different needs. Instead, according to Marx, the goal for a communist society should be from each according to ability, to each according to need - in other words: while a basic income could fit within a communist framework, as the only source of income it would just create different problems: it would overpay people who choose to not contribute even though they are able to, and would underpay people with special needs.

This, incidentally is also the reason pretty much no proponents - regardless where they fall on the political spectrum - advocate a basic income that is particularly high. It's called basic income for a reason.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#287
post #284
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Czechoslovakia was advanced capitalist country Did it have sufficient over-production that redistribution would remove "common wants" for everyone? As early as 1845, Marx set that out as a central criteria that would have to be met before a socialist revolution would have any hope of succeeding. > We just don't like to share, as a species. And in fact, this is a central aspect of Marx' argument for socialist revolu…

> Nothing assumes people wanting to share. It assumes once workers won the surpluses won't decrease. This turned out to be false assumption, because people don't like to share, so they don't work as well if they only get part of the fruits of their work, as they would if they got most of the fruits of their work for themselves.

Today they don't generally get a share of the surplus, so by your argument they should be working even worse.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#288
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it further into context £240 billion is slightly less than what the UK government spends on pensions and welfare. Since basic income would replace much of the need for pensions and welfare, it might just end up more or less balancing out.

The UK government currently spends around £120b on welfare (Including pensions) a year. Please don't pluck false information out of thin air.

[deleted]

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#289
post #88

Basic income is a nice theory, but completely ignores the financing part. The money has to come from somewhere. I would be really fine with receiving a basic income. From the social side I would support it. People can do what they like, like artists, developers, and creative people. May be there will be the next business opportunity, startup from that work. Yes, may be other people are lazy, that is like today. There…

> The money has to come from somewhere.

That's the thing: the money is already there. Most countries already have an extensive (and expensive) social security system. The problem is that they tend to have a lot of administrative overhead, and they effectively punish people for working, because they lose the social security payments once they get a job.

Basic income is basically the same thing, except that it's also for people who work. Same rule for everybody.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic math: £240 billion / 64.1 million people in the UK = £3,744/year (assuming no government overhead). Seems low. That works out to be £312/mo/person. That certainly wouldn't seem to replace many costs (especially pensions and the like). Let's say you wanted it to be £500/mo/person. That'd run you £384.6 billion/year. Add in, say, 5% overhead and you're at £403 billion/year. Where does that money come from? If you…

You also have to factor in the fact that for most government welfare-type agencies a large portion of their budgets are spent running the bureaucracy, rather than going out to the people. Universal Basic Income greatly reduces the overhead costs. So £1 of Basic Income doesn't replace £1 of a current welfare program; it replaces £2 or £3 of the current program. Put another way, if the current welfare spending is £120…

Eh, government bureaucracies in first-world aren't as inefficient as some people make a living claiming. In the US, administrative expenses for Social Security run less than 1% of the budget. Medicaid and Medicare run with similar margins. Compare this to private-sector insurance in the US, where 80-85% "medical loss ratios" (ie, the fraction of premiums paid out for medical care, as opposed to the fraction kept for administration, advertising, and profits) are common; even in the good old days (before the excesses of modern executive compensation, profits, and advertising) MLR peaked at around 95%.

The simple fact is that many social welfare programs are just expensive, because there are a lot of people being helped and the quantity of money you need to spend to make any difference is just adds up.

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