A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#251

Post by fsloth » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 12:33 PM UTC

anticon wrote: post #52

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Basic income is a form of income transfer -a practice that is considered civilized and expected of modern nation states in a scale or another. This is not communism. It is to enable stable societies with people who are content and not prone to be recruited for an armed mob for populist causes.

Income transfers were implemented as tools to block communism by no one else than the benevolent, friend of the people, Iron-Friggin-Chancelor Bismarck, not because of fairness, but of social stability.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#252

Post by xienze » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 12:39 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #139

verinus wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and my take on people arguing for basic minimum income have not understood the human nature. communism was doomed from the beginning as they were removing all incentives to do something useful in the long therm.

There is a huge difference between everyone gets exactly the same regardless of merit* (communism) and everyone gets a guaranteed income on which you can just barely make a living (basic income). The second doesn't disincentivize working, as you still get increased rewards if you work or work harder. * Unless you are in a position of power of course, then you deserve more.

> and everyone gets a guaranteed income on which you can just barely make a living (basic income).

You realize that basic income will just become another campaign promise to secure votes, right? Couple that with "I can barely live on my basic income!" sob stories and we'll quickly find that basic income won't be so "basic" given enough time.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#253

Post by johnchristopher » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 12:43 PM UTC

squids wrote: post #224

ppereira wrote: post #209

It looks like this is not a "saturation" site for testing the basic income theory. All participants appear to start with the same income, but the basic income group receives their income with no strings attached. This can create some unfortunate incentives that would not occur had everyone received a basic income. For example, if you have one group with a basic income and one group without a basic income in the same…

>the group without would be more likely to be hired for low wage jobs because that salary is much more important to them. That's not necessarily how it would work. In the UK we've had a top up with tax credits for low paid jobs. What we've seen is an explosion of low paid part time jobs as businesses know people will take them as their income will be topped up by the govt.

That's irritating to read because when basic income is being discussed it's always about people taking advantage of it for not working when in the real world it's more likely the bosses and the people in power who will take advantage of it (and they will, a relative of mine lost his job at 50 because a govt sponsored win-win program targeting the youth: hire a young gun and the govt will pay a part of his salary. Now they had to pay my relative a hefy sum of money in social benefits. He luckily found a better job later and his old company is now playing carousel with young guns and getting less done of course.)

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#254

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 12:48 PM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #136

anticon wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

Wrong. The majority isn't lazy, the majority is rebelling , in a passive-aggressive way. Faced with a job that they easily recognize as worthless economic make-work, they do as little of it as they must. Faced with having their mental energy drained down to nearly nothing, they prefer no-effort recreational activities like TV. Basic income will unleash a temporary plague of laziness, as people snatch back control of…

[deleted]

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#255

Post by vfdva » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 12:50 PM UTC

FHorse wrote: post #163

Having lived under a communist regime and also in the ghettos of NYC decades ago, I can tell you just how idiotic this is. But I guess there's no shortage of idiotic ideas when you are playing with other people's money.

What was it about living in NYC ghettos that suggests basic income is a bad idea?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#256

Post by Loughla » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 12:51 PM UTC

wubwubwub wrote: post #84

anticon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Do you not think you're in a bubble of 1%ers? Most people aren't itching to start a company you know... Most want to watch American Idol and do nothing.

Why does everything have to be an extreme at each end of the spectrum? Either starting companies or doing nothing? I'd like to believe, possibly naively, that for a lot of people there would be a middle ground. Spending their time on personal growth, creative pursuits, general fitness and well being. In essence, living well. Just because you're not attempting to start the next social media, it doesn't automatically m…

That's exactly what would happen. Many people would transition to part-time jobs to spend time with their families/friends/volunteer or civic organizations they are already involved in.

You can see it when an 'Average Joe' gets a windfall. Anecdotal evidence is all I have, but having observed several people inherit money from older relatives who have passed, the general first focus is on creating free time to spend with family and friends. Then they focus on those organizations they are already involved in. Then they focus on fun nonsense like large TV's and dumb cars.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#257

Post by mattchew » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 12:53 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #83

dagw wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

everyone has a personal project that gets sidelined for their work. For many people that project is to watch their favorite TV shows while eating their favorite ice cream.

No it isn't. That isn't their personal project. That's all they have the choice of doing. Most people do those things because they're tired after working hard all day for a wage that doesn't give them enough money to do anything but sit in front of the television. If people had the opportunity to work a bit less in their job so they could do something worthwhile and fulfilling in their spare time, most people would t…

> Just look at people who inherit or win large sums of money - a few of them end up just enjoying themselves, but most use the money to follow a cause that they think is something worthwhile.

Can you link to the source you're talking about? I'd like to know more about what you're referring to.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#258

Post by JonFish85 » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 12:55 PM UTC

anticon wrote: post #73

Fuxy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would wager there will be people who will take advantage of the system and use it as a opportunity to not work and laze around all day however those people will be the one who are not particularly productive in their work anyway. They might find something else to do they might not but that's OK it is an acceptable loss. On the other end companies which used to take advantage of the job market and the fact that ever…

You don't mention the fact it's completely unworkable mathematically. In the UK I believe it'd cost £240 billion a year. Where the hell would anyone be able to find that money from? (Tackling tax avoidance from Starbucks isn't a credible answer). Just to put it in context, that's twice the entire NHS's budget, or 5 times our defence spending.

Basic math:

£240 billion / 64.1 million people in the UK = £3,744/year (assuming no government overhead).

Seems low. That works out to be £312/mo/person. That certainly wouldn't seem to replace many costs (especially pensions and the like).

Let's say you wanted it to be £500/mo/person. That'd run you £384.6 billion/year. Add in, say, 5% overhead and you're at £403 billion/year. Where does that money come from? If you stick with the idea that the income is universal, you're dishing out £6,000/person/year, waiting a year, then taking it right back via taxes. Which seems incredibly wasteful, and might drive up that 5% overhead number.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#259

Post by mattchew » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 12:58 PM UTC

Rumford wrote: post #220

Economic experiments can never really have a control group, so what the Dutch government learns from this will depend greatly on the theory they already have when interpreting the data.

IIRC the previous article I read on this, the Dutch are at least attempting to set up a control group.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#260

Post by LBarret » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 12:58 PM UTC

it is quite funny and sad how many comments focus on how this system can be abused (and implicitly why it is inefficient). I think this is a bias from our programming/hacker culture where things (aka programs) tend to work with absolute. My experience in economic policy has more to do with relatives ( a trend vs another one, the percentage of free rider vs the gain for the whole population ) and tuning ( adding counter-balance and conditions as we get feedback from the terrain ).