A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#151

Post by jokoon » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:37 AM UTC

noreasonw wrote: post #115

The problem I see with any basic income scheme is that lazy people can get in the trap to become trapped in a lazy for ever state. Basic income should be accompanied with a policy to motivate people to develop their capabilities and enhance their self confidence. Once you are trapped in the basic income scheme and automation replaces all the low skilled jobs, lazy people can see themselves as completely disposable ob…

> lazy people can see themselves as completely disposable objects

Many people who are in long term unemployment already feel that way. (I think that's my case.)

There is no political motivation to just take unemployed people and just create businesses and do something with them, so I think it's a problem of entrepreneurship. It should be a huge opportunity, but it's not getting done for a simple reason, people consider lazy people to be subhuman moocher and they don't want to deal with them. It is plain stigmatization. People pity the unemployed, but they don't want to help them eitherway.

The thing about the UBI, is that it simplifies the process of welfare, but it also stimulates consumption, which in turn boosts the economy.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#152

Post by bitJericho » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:37 AM UTC

mierek4ever wrote: post #127

onion2k wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. That isn't their personal project. That's all they have the choice of doing. Most people do those things because they're tired after working hard all day for a wage that doesn't give them enough money to do anything but sit in front of the television. If people had the opportunity to work a bit less in their job so they could do something worthwhile and fulfilling in their spare time, most people would t…

Only at 115 - 120 IQ points one starts to be interested in "looking for information on their own". Not to mention things like building stuff on their own. 115-120 IQ is top 10% population. Maybe 20%. You are definitely over estimating general population. It is easy to do so of meeting only the smartest 20% when at university, work, family. I dare you ask McDonald's cashier next time what they want to do in life, or a…

IQ is not a valid indicator of intelligence.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#153

Post by noreasonw » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:41 AM UTC

MDCore wrote: post #130

noreasonw wrote: post #115

The problem I see with any basic income scheme is that lazy people can get in the trap to become trapped in a lazy for ever state. Basic income should be accompanied with a policy to motivate people to develop their capabilities and enhance their self confidence. Once you are trapped in the basic income scheme and automation replaces all the low skilled jobs, lazy people can see themselves as completely disposable ob…

> lazy people can get in the trap to become trapped in a lazy for ever state Do you have any evidence for the existence of these lazy people, and in any significant number? The literature and actual experiments done with basic income shows that people are not lazy, but rather they lack opportunities, or a safety net for small risks, or any of a number of other things.

Thanks for asking for real data about this. I was only giving my very humble opinion about what could happen, I would like to know some links to literature and actual experiments with basic income. I think that laziness is learned and you need to be kicked strongly to move in a doers direction. In a weak economy with no expectations for people to progress laziness and hopeless bloom, if basic income is a step in the right direction it should be along with a way to foster better expectations. Your are not in an asylum for live.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#154

Post by bitJericho » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:41 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #68

beeglebug wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism: "A theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community, and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs." Basic Income: "An income unconditionally granted to all on an individual basis, without means test or work requirement." I dunno, they sound pretty different to me.

So in effect Basic Income is even worse as it doesn't means test recipients. If you're a billionaire, the state is still going to give you money.

The point of it is that our technology is far outpacing our own capabilities, and pretty soon you'll have to literally become a robot in order to compete for basic income. Instead of allowing only the 1 percent of the rich people to own everybody else, we'll have them pay for everyone to live comfortably so they can do good works, while the rich continue to have their robots do all the work. Everybody wins.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#155

Post by jokoon » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:44 AM UTC

I live in france (10% unemployment), and unless you're listed as seeking work, you're not given welfare.

It's odd because they don't really check that you send resumes, nor do they really try to contact companies or just propose you a shitty jobs. The "get a job" mentality is really weird to me, because if you have freedom, and you can't find a job that suits you or that you're just too humiliated to beg all those employers, why punish people for being moochers ?

Unemployment is such a political subject, it always ends up being about social stratification anyways. Employed people are just safe and sound, and there are many parameters and behaviors that keep many individuals away from employment or social integration.

Being a marginal and being unemployed, to me are the same problem.

The UBI solves this problem, since it's injecting money that increase consumption, which in turn also increase business and growth.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#156

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:44 AM UTC

mierek4ever wrote: post #143

mierek4ever wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only at 115 - 120 IQ points one starts to be interested in "looking for information on their own". Not to mention things like building stuff on their own. 115-120 IQ is top 10% population. Maybe 20%. You are definitely over estimating general population. It is easy to do so of meeting only the smartest 20% when at university, work, family. I dare you ask McDonald's cashier next time what they want to do in life, or a…

I love downvotes without explanation. You know I'm right, so you don't discuss. I certainly take a lot of satisfaction from this.

Just provide any reasonable explanation for your claim. I can't imagine any. IQ is a metric that works like this: you do a test on a population, then take the median result and call it IQ 100. If suddenly God Himself put intelligence-enhancing drugs in the rainwater, making everyone smarter than Solomon, you'd still have half of the population below IQ 100.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#157

Post by tinco » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:45 AM UTC

PinguTS wrote: post #88

Basic income is a nice theory, but completely ignores the financing part. The money has to come from somewhere. I would be really fine with receiving a basic income. From the social side I would support it. People can do what they like, like artists, developers, and creative people. May be there will be the next business opportunity, startup from that work. Yes, may be other people are lazy, that is like today. There…

In The Netherlands we are already spending that amount, so it doesn't need to come from anywhere. We spend well over 1000/mo on services for unemployed and poor people. We send social workers, health care all sorts of things. The general theory is that if we would supply these people with basic income they will live healthier lifestyles and not need so much care. In the long run it's thought basic income might even save The Netherlands money.

There's a lot of complaining about how it will make people 'sit around and eat ice cream' as if that's all the unemployed do. They've clearly not gone outside much. The unemployed drink a lot of beer, they do meth and they walk around aimlessly through the city and generally cause all kinds of damages and harm.

I live in the east of The Netherlands with pretty high unemployment, and it's already quite visible. But I've been to San Francisco and that's just horrible. I can't imagine how a rich person (and you have to be rich to live there) would want to live there amongst so many homeless and desperate poor people. Would it really be so bad to pay a bit of extra tax just so those people have a little less shitty lives and don't need to stroll around the SF center? It's not like they enjoy that.

Of course, it's not 100% certain that the basic income will solve that particular problem, but I feel it's worth a shot, so I'm happy Utrecht is trying it.

edit: Also let's remember that most people are simply decent. There's not much wrong with watching American Idol and eating some ice cream. If people do decide to not work under basic income (I don't think the majority will) they won't because they have a satisfying way to spend their time at home or wherever. Why is that a bad thing?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#158

Post by dtech » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:46 AM UTC

mierek4ever wrote: post #127

onion2k wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. That isn't their personal project. That's all they have the choice of doing. Most people do those things because they're tired after working hard all day for a wage that doesn't give them enough money to do anything but sit in front of the television. If people had the opportunity to work a bit less in their job so they could do something worthwhile and fulfilling in their spare time, most people would t…

Only at 115 - 120 IQ points one starts to be interested in "looking for information on their own". Not to mention things like building stuff on their own. 115-120 IQ is top 10% population. Maybe 20%. You are definitely over estimating general population. It is easy to do so of meeting only the smartest 20% when at university, work, family. I dare you ask McDonald's cashier next time what they want to do in life, or a…

I think you should come out of your elitism bubble and actually interact with some "dumb" people (dumb according to you, you sound like a 1930 eugenics propagator with how you treat IQ).

You'll find that there are a lot of people with drive but lack of opportunities there, just like there are a lot of lazy smart people.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#159

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:48 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #83

dagw wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

everyone has a personal project that gets sidelined for their work. For many people that project is to watch their favorite TV shows while eating their favorite ice cream.

No it isn't. That isn't their personal project. That's all they have the choice of doing. Most people do those things because they're tired after working hard all day for a wage that doesn't give them enough money to do anything but sit in front of the television. If people had the opportunity to work a bit less in their job so they could do something worthwhile and fulfilling in their spare time, most people would t…

[deleted]

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#160

Post by dantheman » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:49 AM UTC

jokoon wrote: post #155

I live in france (10% unemployment), and unless you're listed as seeking work, you're not given welfare. It's odd because they don't really check that you send resumes, nor do they really try to contact companies or just propose you a shitty jobs. The "get a job" mentality is really weird to me, because if you have freedom, and you can't find a job that suits you or that you're just too humiliated to beg all those em…

That money has to come from somewhere, it will either reduce the consumption from where it was taken or it will reduce capital stocks that can be used for investment.