A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#61

Post by beeglebug » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:27 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #52

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

Communism: "A theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community, and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs."

Basic Income: "An income unconditionally granted to all on an individual basis, without means test or work requirement."

I dunno, they sound pretty different to me.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#62

Post by audunw » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:28 AM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #47

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

If a government were to do that for everyone it seems pretty obvious that society will be better off - people will spend their time working on things to improve everyone's life rather than worrying about how to afford their rent The incredulity of this is plainly galling. How does one draw a broad conclusion like that? Plenty of European examples abound where despite generous - some would argue very generous - state…

I don't think what you're referencing works as a good counterexample. Currently benefits only goes to those who needs it or seeks it. It says little about how the people who don't need it, or wouldn't seek welfare payments they don't need, will behave.

I think public welfare systems has a tendency to make "leechers" more visible. They leech on the government rather than family and they probably tend to collect in specific areas, but I'm not convinced it makes the problem worse.

Although I think basic income would work, I agree that he was exaggerating when he wrote that it "seems pretty obvious". There are some evidence that it would be beneficial, and there's also some pretty straight-forward arguments for why it would be good on a national scale (less bureaucracy). But we won't know until we try. I think more experiments are in order (1: removing restrictions and terms of welfare payments to see if that leads to more undesirable behavior. 2: giving basic income to a whole town with correspondingly realistic taxes to see if working people's behavior changes)

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#63

Post by andruby » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:29 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #52

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

This is not communism. Not at all. Don't confuse socialism with communism.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#64

Post by anticon » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:32 AM UTC

Sir_Substance wrote: post #58

anticon wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

>The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. I've always felt that this argument against basic minimum income said more about the arguer than society at large. In my experience, everyone has a personal project that gets sidelined for their work.

Seriously? Do you not think you're in a bubble of 1%ers? Most people aren't itching to start a company you know... Most want to watch American Idol and do nothing.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#65

Post by dagw » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:34 AM UTC

Sir_Substance wrote: post #58

anticon wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

>The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. I've always felt that this argument against basic minimum income said more about the arguer than society at large. In my experience, everyone has a personal project that gets sidelined for their work.

everyone has a personal project that gets sidelined for their work.

For many people that project is to watch their favorite TV shows while eating their favorite ice cream.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#66

Post by dwightgunning » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:35 AM UTC

The international press seemed to get hold of this last week and the early coverage pointed to a Dutch article with far more direct quotes [1]. My Dutch is poor but my understanding is that the primary aim is as much (if not more) about reducing administrative burden as it is about basic/universal income.

Also, I haven't seen any coverage in the mainstream Dutch press... which is somewhat telling.

[1] http://destadutrecht.nl/politiek/utrecht-start-experiment-me...

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#67

Post by thephyber » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:35 AM UTC

mtsr wrote: post #22

vog wrote: post #16

Can this really work when applied just partially? This experiment is about ~250 people with basic income in a large city. (The text mentions 300 people, but some of them form a control group that doesn't receive basic income.) So if any of these selected people will try to find a job, they will probably voluntarily "lose" it to somebody to really needs that job. Even without that moral issue, this makes still sense f…

Actually, money worries are some of the worst things your employees can have. An employee without them is happier and more productive. So I would definitely hire the one with the minimum income.

Reminds me of the research that came out in the last year that shows being in poverty is equivalent to losing about 13 IQ points[1]

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/aug/29/poverty-menta...

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#68

Post by anticon » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:36 AM UTC

beeglebug wrote: post #61

anticon wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

Communism: "A theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community, and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs." Basic Income: "An income unconditionally granted to all on an individual basis, without means test or work requirement." I dunno, they sound pretty different to me.

So in effect Basic Income is even worse as it doesn't means test recipients. If you're a billionaire, the state is still going to give you money.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#69

Post by caminante » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:37 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #55

wozniacki wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a government were to do that for everyone it seems pretty obvious that society will be better off - people will spend their time working on things to improve everyone's life rather than worrying about how to afford their rent The incredulity of this is plainly galling. How does one draw a broad conclusion like that? Plenty of European examples abound where despite generous - some would argue very generous - state…

> Plenty of European examples abound where despite generous - some would argue very generous - state dispensed benefits certain sections of the society just do not respond positively in measures of improvement of their own station in life much less "working on things to improve everyone's else (lives)". For many years people on English out of work benefits were not allowed to do voluntary work or be a student - those…

I'm looking at the wiki[2] and 1. it's a documentary 2. it's on Channel 4 -- a public-service (non-commercial) channel in the UK.

Can you help add more context for what you're getting at?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#70

Post by Fuxy » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:37 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

I would wager there will be people who will take advantage of the system and use it as a opportunity to not work and laze around all day however those people will be the one who are not particularly productive in their work anyway.

They might find something else to do they might not but that's OK it is an acceptable loss.

On the other end companies which used to take advantage of the job market and the fact that everybody needs a job to survive will have a hard time to find employees since now people can afford to be selective.

When survival is off the table nothing is more important than enjoying your job since you spend a great deal of the day doing it.

Another possibility is part-time work being more sought after since some people may want to work but wouldn't like to spend 8 hours every day doing it.

Overall i believe it will have a positive effect on society if you don't get hung up on the fact that some people will take advantage of it which most politicians tend to do even with the benefit system in the UK.