A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#41

Post by smhg » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 7:56 AM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #6

ryan-allen wrote: post #2

I wonder how much you'd need to save and to own in order to conduct this experiment on yourself? I've wondered about what I would do day to day if I didn't 'have to work to live'. I honestly think I'd be doing very similar things. I'd still be programming, and I'd be wanting to make things that'd help people do their jobs better, but I wouldn't feel like I 'had to'. That alone would improve my sanity immensely (I thi…

The problem there is that you have a cushy programming job. The bigger question is what about the gas station clerks? Or cleaning people? Or wait staff? Or any of the people working the millions of other jobs that just totally suck. Having done it in the past, I'm 100% sure nobody wakes up totally stoked to go bus tables or wash dishes. So, maybe people who have awesome jobs will just keep doing what they're doing, b…

I'm not saying the shitty job argument is invalid, but it is much more complex.

It has so many different sides a test sounds like a good idea.

Taking the shitty out of a Subway (sandwiches) employee's job might now sound hard. But there are so many solutions to this single situation. And these might be fairly different for many shitty jobs. Just to name a few in this case: better pay, automation, better working conditions, smaller one-person franchises, disappear altogether,...

It's nearly impossible to find the solution upfront nor generalize. I personally believe society's creativity can easily solve this.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#42

Post by noodly » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 7:59 AM UTC

vog wrote: post #16

Can this really work when applied just partially? This experiment is about ~250 people with basic income in a large city. (The text mentions 300 people, but some of them form a control group that doesn't receive basic income.) So if any of these selected people will try to find a job, they will probably voluntarily "lose" it to somebody to really needs that job. Even without that moral issue, this makes still sense f…

> Can this really work when applied just partially?

Since this is an experiment I doubt anyone reasonable participating in it would leave their work and live only on basic income. So the result is already determined - basic income doesn't change anything.

IMO to test basic income theory, it should be implemented nation-wide for unspecified period of time - with the ability to cancel it at anytime in case of when negative effects significantly outweight positive ones. When it gets cancelled it failed.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#43

Post by wavefunction » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:00 AM UTC

tremon wrote: post #26

GigabyteCoin wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>somebody to really needs that job. That somebody would not "really need that job" because they would be guaranteed a basic income no matter what in a real world scenario.

There are other reasons to "really need a job" though. Self-realization, fulfillment, social coherence come to mind. Or are those factors of happiness reserved only for the 1%?

The 1% are perennially unhappy, or why else should they spread their misery to the rest?

A koan, of sorts, rough-shod and ill-fitted, yet perfectly shaped for the game.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#44

Post by TisButMe » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:01 AM UTC

hueving wrote: post #36

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

>people will spend their time working on things to improve everyone's life Some people will. I have met many plenty of people though that don't care about other people regardless of their income.

But those people will always be a net negative for society, basic income or not. Empowering those who would make a positive difference if they had enough time/money sounds like a good idea to me.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#45

Post by lumberjack » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:03 AM UTC

The article is unclear, if not misleading.

They are not testing a universal basic income scheme. They are testing an unrestricted basic income scheme, for welfare recipients only. If the experiment is a success it would mean that welfare schemes will become less paternalistic.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#46

Post by adamhepner » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:03 AM UTC

mtsr wrote: post #8

jlarocco wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem there is that you have a cushy programming job. The bigger question is what about the gas station clerks? Or cleaning people? Or wait staff? Or any of the people working the millions of other jobs that just totally suck. Having done it in the past, I'm 100% sure nobody wakes up totally stoked to go bus tables or wash dishes. So, maybe people who have awesome jobs will just keep doing what they're doing, b…

Depends. If every euro you earn there adds to your unconditional minimum income, instead of replacing a euro from welfare, the motivation to work for that new car, or whatever, becomes pretty tangible. Note that €900 (or €1300 for a family) is pretty barebones. You won't be putting much more than bread and potatoes on the table using that. And you'll probably live in a rather small house too.

And if that does not satisfy you, you've got all the time in the day to cultivate your own cabbage garden on balcony.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#47

Post by wozniacki » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:07 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

  If a government were to do that for everyone it seems 
  pretty obvious that society will be better off - people 
  will spend their time working on things to improve 
  everyone's life rather than worrying about how to afford
  their rent

The incredulity of this is plainly galling.

How does one draw a broad conclusion like that?

Plenty of European examples abound where despite generous - some would argue very generous - state dispensed benefits certain sections of the society just do not respond positively in measures of improvement of their own station in life much less "working on things to improve everyone's else (lives)".

A good - and I admit quite controversial - account of this kind of malaise is recounted in the British Channel 4 documentary, Benefits Street [1] [2]

[1] Benefits Street Season 01 Episode 01

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlrLp-R4g_M

[2] Benefits Street

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefits_Street

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#48

Post by tluyben2 » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:10 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

What round of investment was that? And yes that is sound; in later rounds even a number which makes you never (at least the coming 10 years) having to worry about money so you can focus on your company 100%. If you do not do that you will not be able concentrate even when something trivial like having too little money for your family occurs for some reason. Which is bad for investors and everyone else involved in the company.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#49

Post by naz » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:13 AM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #47

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

If a government were to do that for everyone it seems pretty obvious that society will be better off - people will spend their time working on things to improve everyone's life rather than worrying about how to afford their rent The incredulity of this is plainly galling. How does one draw a broad conclusion like that? Plenty of European examples abound where despite generous - some would argue very generous - state…

You're woefully misinformed about exactly how generous benefits in the UK are. People who do manage to live off benefits here can't expect a quality of life that even begins to approach comfortable.

You shouldn't let some opportunistic reality TV show be the basis for your world views.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#50

Post by ctack » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:14 AM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #47

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

If a government were to do that for everyone it seems pretty obvious that society will be better off - people will spend their time working on things to improve everyone's life rather than worrying about how to afford their rent The incredulity of this is plainly galling. How does one draw a broad conclusion like that? Plenty of European examples abound where despite generous - some would argue very generous - state…

But we got all those great British bands out of the deal.