My first week at a new job that forces me back into Windows (with WSL). I'm about ready to throw my machine out the window and follow after it. I understand that a lot of the performance issues are things like crowdstrike and Defender and maybe some poorly configured network proxy stuff but Jesus, this sucks. I write embedded software for machines with 1 ten thousandth the compute of my dev machine, I should not be encumbered by issues like this.
Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly
281–290 of 535 posts
Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Fastmail client is good when it's up and running, but not as good as well-implemented native apps. The initial startup is much slower, and the iOS / iPadOS app (which is the same webapp iirc) is pretty bug-ridden, with the webview freezing or app not progressing past the loading animation without a close swipe / reopen.
My main gripe with the Fastmail client is that it doesn't work offline. This is of course absolutely possible to do with a webapp, and IMO ought to be a priority for an email client.
The mobile client now supports viewing emails offline.
Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly
#283Genuinely curious how quality is so poor at MS. Tech debt and deadlines and red tape? This is the company that invented the term dogfooding and forced everyone to use Exchange until all the bugs were worked out. I’m building a next gen web mail app at work and there are a ton of UX edge cases but the performance of the core UI is not rocket science. I’m looking for help play testing to squash bugs, improve the last m…
I clicked, saw this "The email app with its own AI agent" and closed. Another "Let's shove AI into something". Outlook already provides me this, it's terrible at it since context is key and context is probably buried in several places it has access to and despite that access, it still falls flat.
Fair feedback and sentiment.
As I build this out there's actually less and less AI in the product and more good old-fashioned UX, writing and data entry tools, and automations.
Some examples...
We're simply bringing a CRM CRUD form into an email thread, populated from email sender / domain, for the end user to review and submit.
You can add your own notes into a thread, and copy / paste from
Similarly good pre-defined templates with variables perform way better than AI generated drafts.
Context is indeed key. The person at their email inbox has most of the context in their head, they need good tools to organize that context down for their future self and their team. AI can help but its really about just building a great tool for the operator.
Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, not conversations, actual data. Think reports, invoices, large PDFs, etc. Emailing files to yourself, that sort of thing. Then they end up with multiple PSTs.
I very much prefer Outlook's indexing compared to Sharepoint's shitty UI and search capabilities.
I mean, yeah if your choice is between Email or SharePoint, email wins every time.
But I've seen enough corrupted PST files in my days to never trust Outlook/Exchange as permanent file storage.
Now with "New" Outlook you don't even get that, you get an ODT cache file, everything else is permanently server side in Microsoft land.
Enterprise "productivity" software is fundamentally broken.
Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I understand there are some missing features compared to the old one There are some people that use Outlook for...well I'm not sure what but things that go way beyond email and calendar. I've been using the web app for several years now, it's fine. When I was new in IT, I always struggled to see what the big deal was with Outlook desktop. The web mail has folders, rules, shared mailbox support, integrated calendar,…
Yeah this is pretty much the only thing protecting us from Records Retention Policy(tm). Because the legal office thinks discovery is toooooooo risky, we have to delete all of the information we used to develop long lived business processes. When I wrote this god and I understood it, now god only knows.
The last [US] BigCorp I worked for deployed (in Outlook) automatic deletion of all emails older than their Records Retention threshold. It was incredibly frustrating to have essentially all design/rationale history (from the key players involved) go into the auto-shredder with nobody but me caring. The only workarounds that could avoid the auto-shredder were enormously labor intensive, and of course, debatably violated Record Retention policy.
Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
IME running the new outlook in an actual web browser (through outlook.office.com) is waaay faster than the heavy (heh) client. Bonus points for it running fine on Linux, too. I understand there are some missing features compared to the old one (can't recall which), but for basic corpo emailing it works perfectly for me. I now have 0 reasons to use Windows at work, so, for once, I'll nonironically cheer MS for a job w…
> I understand there are some missing features compared to the old one There are some people that use Outlook for...well I'm not sure what but things that go way beyond email and calendar. I've been using the web app for several years now, it's fine. When I was new in IT, I always struggled to see what the big deal was with Outlook desktop. The web mail has folders, rules, shared mailbox support, integrated calendar,…
Anyway, the root of the problem is people using email for everything it was never intended to do or be. If "new" Outlook can break some of those habits, we'll all be better off for it.
If ever there was a recipe for doing a terrible job at building software, that's as good a way to put it as I think we will ever see.
Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly
#287Congrats to the new outlook team on the performance improvements, I certain it used to take 30 seconds to do it, and they've cut it to 10s !!
But seriously, can we please make desktop productivity apps not suck on windows? I started programming on windows, old school Win32 with a little MFC. Still have the super thick MFC book from MikeB somewhere in the closet. It was better than the alternatives at the time.
Now I look at the windows developer site and I can't even figure out what happened since I stopped Win32 programming at around 2004. It's a total train wreck of abandoned technology, each worse than the previous ones.
Office (and to some degree visual studio), used to be the lighthouse, best in breed application, often using api's that were not yet public and styles that were not yet adopted. I remember buying component libraries that emulated these to make better looking and performing apps.
I'd look at windows again if they would make apps not suck and be ones that the industry strives to emulate. Without that, Linux or Mac is just as good (actually better since they have decent userlands).
Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly
#288Up until 2019, Windows was my daily driver and had been for the prior ~20. years. I had been regularly ssh-ing into Linux machines, but it didn't seem like a place I could live. Then, in 2019, I built a PC and, wanting to get more proficient in Linux environments, I made it a dual boot setup with a Ubuntu desktop partition and a Windows partition, expecting I'd inevitably get frustrated on the Linux partition by sidequests debugging driver issues or setting up peripherals, unproductive yak-shaving stuff. I had to google a setting or two over the first couple days, but other than that, everything just worked on the Linux partition. Things opened quickly, things installed easily, and things I was worried about (e.g. nvidia and printer drivers) were either automatic or a one-time step so small I don't remember it. After a couple weeks, I noticed there hadn't been a single moment where I had to switch to the Windows partition, and a month after that I reformatted the Windows partition ssd and added the storage to the Linux partition.
If you have considered switching to Linux and worried that it would be a chore, give it a shot (if you have the freedom to choose). It has been polished and ready since at least 2019. I have to use a Windows machine for work and, like this New Outlook issue shows, MSFT has concluded most users can't or won't leave so there's no margin in improving UX and some margin in doing things that make UX much worse. I don't think I'll elect to have a personal Windows machine ever again in my life.
Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly
#289Just a classic example of bloating degradation that happens to any software which has saturated all basic needs decades ago. The issue is, as the product continues to generate revenue, the product team continues to get funding and they are forced to add bloat as new features. Same with security and compliance standards at companies. You keep pouring more money, and you keep getting more fort walls and dungeons, witho…
You forgot to mention that all the people who made the original product great left and all the ones which could make the successor great did not join.