Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat • Hacker News Board

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#281

Post by infamia » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #274

infamia wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should China side with US over Ukraine's territorial integrity as US violates Chinese territorial integrity? I'm asking you and the CCP to stand for Ukraine's territorial integrity and to rebuke Russia. If territorial integrity and international norms are to be respected, shouldn't you and the CCP do that because it is the morale and consistent thing to do? A code of morality is not dependent on what others do,…

First, you might not be aware of this, but vast majority of the world takes a contrary position to the west on the war in Ukraine: https://ecfr.eu/publication/united-west-divided-from-the-res... https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/02/27/the-global-south-ref... https://usrussiaaccord.org/acura-viewpoint-krishen-mehta-the... https://archive.is/2023.02.23-211202/https://www.nytimes.com... https://archive.ph/4kbWG Second,…

> NATO recognized the independence of the separatist regions and then had them invite NATO to assist them militarily. This is precisely what Russia did. NATO literally established the precedent here.

How is that remotely comparable when there were zero the separatists movements in the Kherson and Zaphorizia Oblasts before Russia invaded those regions? Yet Russia declared them independent anyhow, and then annexed four Oblasts, which was Russia's original goal in the first place. Will you condemn Russia for all that? If not, we have nothing left to discuss.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#282

Post by lumost » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 2:58 PM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #254

lumost wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Directly attacking food shipments/landings would invite more sanctions and increase the likelihood of more weapons being delivered to defend said infrastructure. Past studies have shown that even nukes have trouble knocking out rail and port infrastructure. It’s highly unlikely that china would be capable of achieving and holding full air supremacy in Taiwan. Particularly if SAM systems are readily replaced. The two…

There are 22 airports in Taiwan and only 4 with the infrastructure to handle cargo flights. China has over 100,000 rockets and missiles estimated to be in their inventory, and the best manufacturing system in the world to produce more. A 747 cannot land on a ripped up and shredded runway, and it cannot offload goods into burning warehouses. Not to mention the ridiculous idea of trying to feed, clothe, and care for 25…

Build more ports on the pacific? The Berlin airlift was conducted in 1948 - technology and shipping capacity has improved dramatically since.

While china may have many mines - it is not unreasonable that an open seas mission could bring up to 5 carrier strike groups to the pacific coast of Taiwan. Enough to deter mine laying operations as well as conduct mine clearing operations.

Based on the game theory outlined above, the optimal strategy would be for Taiwan Allie’s to deploy enough military power that a Chinese strike on naval assets would immediately translate to full scale war.

5 carrier strike groups is also sufficient to block sea trade into china from further out than land based missiles can reach. This was also part of the nato strategy with Ukraine. There is enough military on standby in Eastern Europe to dissuade any attack against nato territory.

China needs a fast war that doesn’t escalate to win. Taiwan needs only not to lose. I don’t think china can simultaneously target food and American aircraft carriers without triggering a full war.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#283

Post by yogthos » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 3:15 PM UTC

jonnycomputer wrote: post #279

yogthos wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There can be no question of self determination when US pours billions of dollars into shaping politics in Taiwan.

oh, no? then who has the right of determination? you can't strip the right of a people's self-determination just because you don't like who spends money in the country. you sound like an apologist for fascism

You evidently don't understand the concept of self determination. If your politics are hijacked by the world hegemon, that's called indoctrination. Meanwhile, fascism is something US has been actively cultivating since WW2 https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/16/the-u-s-did-not-defe...

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#284

Post by yogthos » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 3:23 PM UTC

infamia wrote: post #281

yogthos wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, you might not be aware of this, but vast majority of the world takes a contrary position to the west on the war in Ukraine: https://ecfr.eu/publication/united-west-divided-from-the-res... https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/02/27/the-global-south-ref... https://usrussiaaccord.org/acura-viewpoint-krishen-mehta-the... https://archive.is/2023.02.23-211202/https://www.nytimes.com... https://archive.ph/4kbWG Second,…

> NATO recognized the independence of the separatist regions and then had them invite NATO to assist them militarily. This is precisely what Russia did. NATO literally established the precedent here. How is that remotely comparable when there were zero the separatists movements in the Kherson and Zaphorizia Oblasts before Russia invaded those regions? Yet Russia declared them independent anyhow, and then annexed four…

You're doing historical revisionism here. US ran a coup in Ukraine to overthrow a democratically elected government in 2014. This resulted in a civil war between Donbas and western Ukraine. All this has been extensively documented in mainstream western media. It's pretty shocking that you appear to be utterly unaware of this.

https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-evidence-that-Uk... (https://archive.ph/BAxYc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

https://truthout.org/articles/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-rus...

https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escal...

If you won't acknowledge that what Russia is doing in Ukraine is precisely what NATO was doing in Yugoslavia then there really isn't anything left to discuss.

I'll just leave you with this quote from NATO during the war in Yugoslavia:

    If President Milosevic really wants all of his population to have water and
    electricity all he has to do is accept NATO’s five conditions and we will
    stop this campaign.

https://www.nato.int/kosovo/press/p990525b.htm

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#285

Post by jonnycomputer » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #283

jonnycomputer wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh, no? then who has the right of determination? you can't strip the right of a people's self-determination just because you don't like who spends money in the country. you sound like an apologist for fascism

You evidently don't understand the concept of self determination. If your politics are hijacked by the world hegemon, that's called indoctrination. Meanwhile, fascism is something US has been actively cultivating since WW2 https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/16/the-u-s-did-not-defe...

You haven't answered the question. Who, in your view, has the right to determine the future of Taiwan?

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#286

Post by mopsi » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:34 PM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #284

infamia wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NATO recognized the independence of the separatist regions and then had them invite NATO to assist them militarily. This is precisely what Russia did. NATO literally established the precedent here. How is that remotely comparable when there were zero the separatists movements in the Kherson and Zaphorizia Oblasts before Russia invaded those regions? Yet Russia declared them independent anyhow, and then annexed four…

You're doing historical revisionism here. US ran a coup in Ukraine to overthrow a democratically elected government in 2014. This resulted in a civil war between Donbas and western Ukraine. All this has been extensively documented in mainstream western media. It's pretty shocking that you appear to be utterly unaware of this. https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-evidence-that-Uk... ( https://archive.ph/BAxYc )…

> You're doing historical revisionism here. US ran a coup in Ukraine to overthrow a democratically elected government in 2014. This resulted in a civil war between Donbas and western Ukraine

Says who? How many UN members out of 193 hold this position?

My latest count is that this view is held by only 3 UN members out of 193: Russia, Syria, North Korea. The list speaks for itself.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#287

Post by yogthos » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:40 PM UTC

jonnycomputer wrote: post #285

yogthos wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You evidently don't understand the concept of self determination. If your politics are hijacked by the world hegemon, that's called indoctrination. Meanwhile, fascism is something US has been actively cultivating since WW2 https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/16/the-u-s-did-not-defe...

You haven't answered the question. Who, in your view, has the right to determine the future of Taiwan?

The legitimate government of China which Taiwan is a province of.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#288

Post by yogthos » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:42 PM UTC

jonnycomputer wrote: post #251

yogthos wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US has no business interfering in Taiwan. Period.

Who does, besides the Taiwanese?

I'll try explaining this in more familiar terms for you. A province is like a state in US, and the central government of China is akin to the federal government in US. I hope that helps clear things up for you.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#289

Post by HDThoreaun » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

it_citizen wrote: post #20

I am curious what the dominant opinion is in China regarding what the population of Taiwan wants. That the majority of Taiwanese want to become Chinese? That it doesn’t matter what the Taiwan population wants because China has the right to claim it?

From talking to around 15 Chinese people my understanding is that they genuinely believe Taiwan is a province of china and most are completely unaware of the Taiwanese independence movement.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#290

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #284

infamia wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NATO recognized the independence of the separatist regions and then had them invite NATO to assist them militarily. This is precisely what Russia did. NATO literally established the precedent here. How is that remotely comparable when there were zero the separatists movements in the Kherson and Zaphorizia Oblasts before Russia invaded those regions? Yet Russia declared them independent anyhow, and then annexed four…

You're doing historical revisionism here. US ran a coup in Ukraine to overthrow a democratically elected government in 2014. This resulted in a civil war between Donbas and western Ukraine. All this has been extensively documented in mainstream western media. It's pretty shocking that you appear to be utterly unaware of this. https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-evidence-that-Uk... ( https://archive.ph/BAxYc )…

I have found this article to be a good debunker on the above "coup" talking point: https://www.thebulwark.com/what-really-happened-in-ukraine-i...