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California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

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Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#281

Post by kbenson »

ultrarunner wrote: post #241
crooked-v wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3 months vacation per year This perception is usually pretty inaccurate. There's no time given during the school year for essentials like curriculum development, continuing education requirements, training new teachers, etc, so that eats up time during the summer 'break'. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/07/myth-o... > Klem says she’s spending the rest of her summer this year attending meetings, d…

I appreciate the perspective that you’re coming from, but I come from a family of educators. They do have occasional in service days over the summer and obviously are expected back at work a week or so before classes start. Other than that, it very much is a three-month vacation, one that shaped a large part of my childhood.

My understanding is that it's also often heavily weighted to the early years, unless you have someone else's lesson plans to use (and even then, you probably want to prep and maybe do a dry run).

Just like any job, if 90% of what you're doing is new to you or something you have to develop yourself if vastly different than if 10% of what you're doing is new or something you're developing yourself. Given the actual in class time doing the lesson plans is fairly static, that means the non-classroom hours of the day, or your own time, is what is required to make up the slack.

I imagine teachers of fields that have lots of changes (or of districts or states that adopt whole new curriculums) have it worse than some others. At least if they care about doing a good job.

It would be interesting to hear what your family members have to say about their first few years teaching compared to later years, and what period your memories correspond to.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#282

Post by collyw »

I am going to ask this again, as I never receive a satisfactory answer when this subject comes up.

Isn't time all relative? Its just a number, which we adjust by an hour twice a year. It takes us a couple of days to get used to it. Can't people just be more disciplined and go to bed an hour earlier if they need an hours extra sleep? That's effectively what we do in spring when the clocks change.

I came to this conclusion travelling from Chile to Peru, going pretty much directly north. One country had daylight saving for summer the other didn't and on top of that there was an hour difference for time zone - so in total two hours difference. As I say, it took a couple of days to get used to it.

Can anyone give me a decent rebuttal to this argument?

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#283

Post by rorykoehler »

jedberg wrote: post #262
ultrarunner wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the perspective that you’re coming from, but I come from a family of educators. They do have occasional in service days over the summer and obviously are expected back at work a week or so before classes start. Other than that, it very much is a three-month vacation, one that shaped a large part of my childhood.

The distribution seems bi-modal. My wife was a teacher, and she had maybe one free week the whole summer, between development classes, curriculum work, and so on. On some summer days I would leave work at 7pm and then join her in her classroom until 8 or 9pm where she was just finishing up a 12 hour day. Then there were other teachers at the school who took off on the last day of school and you didn't see them again…

Similar experience for my wife. Some teachers just don’t give a shit and never update their curriculum or materials and repeat the same drivel over and over. She on the other hand spent the majority of her free time developing new material and kids actually looked forward to her lessons.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#284

Post by chris11 »

archi42 wrote: post #275
rockinghigh wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You picked an outlier. Most schools districts in the Bay Area (including San Francisco) have starting salaries for teachers in the $50k-$60k range. And in my experience, teachers work a lot more than 40 hours a week. I picked 3 randomly below: Redwood City: https://www.rcsdk8.net/site/handlers/filedownload.ashx?modul... San Mateo: http://www.smfcsd.net/en/assets/files/Employment%20and%20HR/... San Francisco: https://…

Enen with tech workers complaining about the high rents, I wonder how bad teachers fare? Or are these districts in "cheap" areas?

San Mateo and Redwood City are both expensive, but not as bad as SF. One article reported median rents were about 2.4k, which makes sense. There a few places advertising lower rents, but not many, and at that price you are giving stuff up. SF is worse.

Another issue is the commute. Traffic is really bad, so finding a cheaper place farther away from work will cost you in time and energy, especially if you have to cross a bridge.

It's so bad that some districts, including San Mateo, are building their own housing for teachers. https://edsource.org/2019/in-need-of-teacher-housing-more-ca...

https://sf.curbed.com/2019/8/20/20814179/housing-crisis-teac...

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#285

Post by PeterisP »

ThomPete wrote: post #149
PeterisP wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If school starts at 7:30, then that kid isn't waking up fresh at 7, they have to be woken up significantly earlier. I shudder to think of the other examples in the comments which have to already be in school at 7.

If kids get to bed around 8pm they will normally be up at around 6-6.30 plenty of time for most to get ready. But sure if they are put to bed at 9-10 then its going to be tougher.

Kids going to bed at 8pm is absolutely unrealistic because of mismatch with the adults day cycle, the parents likely would not have even finished dinner by 8pm.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#286

Post by piterdevries »

rockinghigh wrote: post #222
gundmc wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying teachers don't deserve to be paid more, but I was surprised to see how much Bay Area teachers make. It's public info for public schools.[1] In Santa Clara County, with no experience, starting salary is $71000. It increases on a schedule each year up to over $131000. Honestly, the job security, structured pay, and 3 months vacation per year is a pretty darn good deal. [1] - https://www.santaclarausd.org…

You picked an outlier. Most schools districts in the Bay Area (including San Francisco) have starting salaries for teachers in the $50k-$60k range. And in my experience, teachers work a lot more than 40 hours a week. I picked 3 randomly below: Redwood City: https://www.rcsdk8.net/site/handlers/filedownload.ashx?modul... San Mateo: http://www.smfcsd.net/en/assets/files/Employment%20and%20HR/... San Francisco: https://…

"Teachers work" LOL good one

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#287

Post by x3n0ph3n3 »

collyw wrote: post #282

I am going to ask this again, as I never receive a satisfactory answer when this subject comes up. Isn't time all relative? Its just a number, which we adjust by an hour twice a year. It takes us a couple of days to get used to it. Can't people just be more disciplined and go to bed an hour earlier if they need an hours extra sleep? That's effectively what we do in spring when the clocks change. I came to this conclu…

No, not all time is relative and the presence of light has profound impacts on our biological circadian rhythm. Even DST has shown negative health impacts. [1]

1. https://www.businessinsider.com/daylight-saving-time-is-dead...

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#288

Post by pentae »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #260
_coveredInBees wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the frustration, but I think it is absurd to expect teachers and school administrators (who are woefully underpaid, especially in the Bay area) to accommodate working parents by working extra hours just for the parent's benefit. It's a hard enough job as it is, what with the poor pay, large workload, dealing with entitled, helicopter parents and the diminishing societal appreciation for their contributio…

There’s a 20:1 to 30:1 ratio so are you suggesting it’s better for 20-30 working, single parent families? Maybe the government should pay teachers more and pay less on defense and we’d have a more productive society.

I think lately western governments (other than the obvious example) have figured out that it's a much better short term play to simply allow immigration to boost the economy rather than longer-than-their-term ideas like education.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#289

Post by andyljones »

collyw wrote: post #282

I am going to ask this again, as I never receive a satisfactory answer when this subject comes up. Isn't time all relative? Its just a number, which we adjust by an hour twice a year. It takes us a couple of days to get used to it. Can't people just be more disciplined and go to bed an hour earlier if they need an hours extra sleep? That's effectively what we do in spring when the clocks change. I came to this conclu…

Physiologically there's no difficulty in pushing your circadian around. Heck, various studies have shown that in isolation people's clocks will drift by an hour or more a week.

Culturally though, there is a preferred cycle, and it's some weighted average of the cycle of all the people you interact with. Moving from Chile to Peru and shifting your cycle 2hrs _to match the Peruvian clock_ isn't so bad, but if you shifted 2hrs the other way you'd find it a lot more painful. This is the problem with shifting school hours: not the hours themselves, but how they interact with everyone else's hours.

Finally, there is a privileged circadian, and it's the Sun's. Free, global lighting is just too good to pass up on.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#290

Post by cobookman »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #260
_coveredInBees wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the frustration, but I think it is absurd to expect teachers and school administrators (who are woefully underpaid, especially in the Bay area) to accommodate working parents by working extra hours just for the parent's benefit. It's a hard enough job as it is, what with the poor pay, large workload, dealing with entitled, helicopter parents and the diminishing societal appreciation for their contributio…

There’s a 20:1 to 30:1 ratio so are you suggesting it’s better for 20-30 working, single parent families? Maybe the government should pay teachers more and pay less on defense and we’d have a more productive society.

I've read multiple studies that the biggest influence in a kids success in school is their parents involvement.

Don't make the assumption that throwing more money at teachers will improve our schools. Zuckerberg tried that with little success, as have many before him.

I'd rather a focus on ensuring every kid has a healthy meal at the table. A support group who's invested in tbe individual kids success. A family that encourages and supports during the best and worst of times.

Arguably the "advantage" well to-do middle class families get.

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