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China Blocks WhatsApp

nytimes.com

281–290 of 648 posts

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Got a link that backs up this rather surreal claim?

Even more interesting: why is it suddenly considered unacceptable to ask for confirmation of a truly strange report?

I suspect the down votes (which I assume you're alluding to) are more regarding the wording. "Got a link that backs up this rather surreal claim?" can read as very aggressive rather than as a genuine question for more information. Also, the second result in my DDG query for "zuckerberg child chinese name" is this link, with the title "Chinese president snubs Mark Zuckerberg’s request for baby name".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1191066...

Variants of "citation needed", particularly those that appear aggressive and easily searchable can potentially attract downvotes, regardless of the actual intent on the part of the poster, one of the downsides of internet forums where the only channel of communication is the text itself, stripped of intonation and body language.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The amount of Chinese students that are publishing some of the leading CS and ML research from the best universities and corporations worldwide Yes most of them are in the West. Most of them also end up staying in the West too. > Unless the US, Canada, France, Israel etc... closes the visa program for Chinese workers Chinese companies... Consider that Tencent, Baidu etc... all have major offices in SV, Seattle, LA…

Most of them also end up staying in the West too. Not true anymore - maybe a decade ago but it's not the case today. Even for the ones that do stay, in my experience with the Machine Learning world they are going to work at Chinese owned or financed companies like the ones I mentioned. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/04/17/chinas-bes...

You're right about the brain drain no longer being in effect. I suspect it's due to the new shortsighted trend with US immigration policy: https://nextshark.com/u-s-made-getting-visa-difficult-people... Not so much with people wanting to go back.

Still I feel it's still more inefficient and expensive compared to just having a free flow of information and data.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#283
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this way too until I went to china. The current batch of US apps are also copies of earlier apps. Remember chatting on bbses? IRC, ICQ, etc? China doesn’t need western internet companies, they have a quarter of the world’s population. Can you blame them for wanting to promote home grown apps to build wealth within their country? Also, they like control, why would you let an foreigner end to end encryp…

I’m surprised iMessage worked for me while I was there. I wonder what consessions Apple had to give for that? From the article: 'Other services provided by American technology companies are available in mainland China. The country tolerates Microsoft’s Skype service for phone calls, which does not provide end-to-end encryption and as a result is easier for governments to monitor. Beijing also allows Apple’s FaceTime…

Sorry, but is there any evidence that iMessage or FaceTime has been MITMed? In China or elsewhere?

(I wonder whether it's tolerated because of Apple's small market share...)

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: what would happen if China abolished the Communist Party or whatever they call and chose democracy. Chaos? Breakdown of the country into separate states /provinces? Civil war? Military rule? I would not want to the one in charge the day after. Obviously (moderated) rule by the people is best but not sure how China and say countries in the mold of Saudi Arabia will handle it.

India with its 1.3 billion people is capable of operating via a Democratic system (with its various issues and flaws not detracting from that fact), and they're even poorer than China and with fewer resources. There's no reason China can't manage a successful (even if messy) transition away from authoritarianism to a variation of representative government.

They could do it, but the current leadership doesn't seem interested.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the UK does tons of video surveillance of public spaces. much much more than the US, where cameras are often low-res garbage, broken or hacked for use in botnets.

In the UK, if you're robbed can you go to a police station, see the video, and get the cops started on finding the robber?

i don't know about that.

i do know that some UK police departments have officers watching some public spaces in real time. they can sometimes recognize and intercept known offenders before a crime occurs.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/may/06/ukcrime1

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#286

Edit: This is not a justification or defense of internet censorship. It is an explanation of why the Chinese public may be more willing to accept strict government controls than the West. While most Westerners see actions like this as serious violations of individual rights, the Chinese are used to such exercises of control by their leaders. There is a firm historical basis for similar behavior going back thousands o…

There is no "the" Chinese. There are a lot of individual people, and if you took a Chinese baby and raised it in an encouraging way, there is no Chinese gene that would make them timid and obedient regardless. And just like you wouldn't take, say, an alcoholic, and say that being an alcoholic is obviously the best way for them to be, or they wouldn't be one, I don't see how that is any more sensible with "cultures". I reject it.

People hiding behind each other and in hierarchies is no less dysfunctional than people plastering over the holes in their souls with material goods and what have you, and harmony is a complete stranger to both, at least as I understand it. When I speak with a human being who wears a saddle of some kind, has some kind of dirt on their lens, peace enters my mind after the conversation, after the fake, uptight, unhappy circus leaves town and me with my mind and the world around me as it is, not as overly fearful people inside it want me to describe it.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative: Innovation happens within the context of Chinas censorship and political regime. Blocking of entrenched western competitors allows home grown solutions to spring up, and local technological know how to develop faster. Capitalism and innovation turn out to work within the context of an illiberal society just fine. Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off to the rest of the world, but s…

100% this. And occasionally these apps out innervate their western counterparts. WeChat is better than WhatsApp, Facebook.

out innervate? nice astroturfing

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#288

Edit: This is not a justification or defense of internet censorship. It is an explanation of why the Chinese public may be more willing to accept strict government controls than the West. While most Westerners see actions like this as serious violations of individual rights, the Chinese are used to such exercises of control by their leaders. There is a firm historical basis for similar behavior going back thousands o…

Yeah my experience is that Americans lock on to how horrible and oppressed China must be, "those poor victims", perpetuated and validated by the Chinese-Americans whose parents came here after a revolution and have little-to-no connection to life in mainland China after that point, but the other Americans elevate the Chinese-American view as more canonical and don't dare to challenge it. While this stands in direct contrast to a large proportion of mainland Chinese who don't find the social order to be controversial at all.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#289
It's interesting that for so long there was conventional wisdom suggesting a large reason the Soviet Union economy failed due to inefficiencies of communism and oppression.

We now know not only did that not stop China, it's not clear that the ceiling of economic success of their system has been determined.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So if the strategy is have-our-cake-and-eat-it-too why does the rest of the world play along? Corporate greed outside the control of governmental entities? Because having access to even a fraction of China's market is a huge boon to any company, as is having access to Chinese manufacturing. And playing along with China has made their society far more open and capitalistic, even if the ruling class occasionally atte…

Which sounds like the "corporate profit maximizing controlled at higher-than-governmental levels" explanation. I think the argument in recent coverage like this is that it's no longer "has made their society far more open" but "HAD made their society far more open." And then it really exposes the financially-opportunistic, rather than principal-guided-as-advertised, nature of how the West deals with different countri…

Nothing the West does is principled, and the sooner people realise this the sooner they understand why the rest of the world reacts the way they do to the West.

From destabilising Libya and Syria, to taking in refugees, to grandstanding with Russia, nothing is done for any set of moral principles.

Libya and Syria were 2 nations that believed in Arab and African pan-nationalism, and tried to assert independence and secularism in the face of Western hegemony and Saudi-sponsored Wahhabism. Sure they were dictators and unsavoury, but they also weren't any worse than the many dictators the West has propped up and sponsored over the years.

For years many economists and business leaders decried the high salaries, strong unions and high cost of doing business in Germany, Scandinavia, France and elsewhere, so they imported a bunch of refugees under the guise of humanitarian principles, and as a result they've broken the power of unions, have unlimited cheap labour and are dismantling parts of the welfare state (look at what Macron just passed through in France).

And finally in Russia, NATO has them completely encircled, we overthrew several governments on their borders and replaced them with pro-Western ones (see "Colour Revolutions", or hell, just look at Mikheil Saakashvili's career path), and then we decry the fact that they finally took action for self-preservation (they had a perpetual lease of the naval base in Sevastopol which the pro-Western government wanted to end, despite the understanding with Ukraine at the dissolution of the USSR).

And of course there's the various covert CIA actions throughout the years which have been declassified, it'll be interesting to see in the next 40 years how current events are portrayed in the future.

Also, take a look at various developing countries, and actions by the World Bank and western NGOs. Contrast that with how China has courted those same countries. I've been to countries which were decimated and abandoned by the West, and where the only infrastructure projects even happening are funded by China. I know a few people from those countries which even went to study in Chinese universities, and whose futures are going to be linked with China. No one from that country has any illusion of the West being 'good', as they were a former colony abandoned by the West.

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