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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#271

Post by joshlemer »

moooo99 wrote: post #155
jayGlow wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

personally yes, that kind of choice should belong to the individual not the government. besides that though the laws are nonsensical why is a seatbelt required in a car not not in a bus, why are motorcycles even allowed at all?

This argument falls apart for countries with socialized healthcare. As long as all people are paying for your dumb decisions, it is reasonable to expect the government to reduce the frequency of dumb decisions by adequate means.

I notice that these sorts of justifications for increased paternalism as a consequence of socialized services come up in public discourse all the time but never seems to be mentioned by advocates when proposing these socialized systems. It should be mentioned up front as a significant cost as part of the package, it comes with strings attached like the government telling you how to live your life. Interesting that people don't seem to want to mention that up front.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#272

Post by alkonaut »

mrighele wrote: post #190
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

> If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. Any ordering is an algorithm technically, so yes just "banning algorithm" doesn't work. A better alternative could be "the algorithm must be public and reproducible by the user". "Sort the posts of the people I follow in chronological order" you're good "Sort the posts by the output of a blackbox trained on user data"…

> Any ordering is an algorithm technically, so yes just "banning algorithm" doesn't wor

Algorithm in this context (and presumably in any proposed legal text) is about personalization and purpose.

No one worries about presenting content based on total popularity, coarse geography. user's browser language, or anything like that, regardless of whether the actual ranking algorithm (in the CS sense) is an algorithm. Yes it's a terrible name for what's being discussed, but let's not lose focus on the purpose because of that.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#273

Post by Aurornis »

alkonaut wrote: post #268
gibspaulding wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t endorse using these apps, but for what it’s worth, Instagram actually does have this feature (tap “instagram” at the top and select “following”). You get a chronological feed with no adds and no reels. Of course they don’t provide an option to make that the default as far as I know.

Yup so all they need to do is only allow that content feed for anyone under X years in some specific countries. Seems like they'll survive this, and it won't even be very expensive to fix.

Reminder that any regulation that depends on age is a trigger forcing ID checks for everyone.

You can’t put a restriction on people under X years without gathering information about everyone’s age. You can’t confirm everyone’s age without some ID check. You can’t do an ID check based on anonymous tokens (too easily shared) so every age check mechanism has some ID revealing step, either to the company or to a 3rd party like a government entity (which will pinky swear they’re not looking at the data).

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#274

Post by benhurmarcel »

spockz wrote: post #214

They should also tackle Youtube. Yesterday my Youtube app opened into "Shorts" automatically. Shorts are of the same addictive variety as TikToks.

If you disable your watch history, Youtube won't show you personalized Shorts anymore. Much less addictive.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#275

Post by Aurornis »

naravara wrote: post #197
Aurornis wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if that makes the angry mob happy then let’s make it default. Then every new user can click the button once and be back to the app they expect. > IMO they should not only be opt-in, but should actually be required to publicly list the parameters and weights they’re using and allow users to tune those weights. I wonder how many people here know that many of the popular apps have rolled out finer controls for rec…

No they should have to pick every time whether they want to be in follower mode or discovery mode. Dismissing concerns as “the angry mob” is richly ironic considering the entire objection is that recommendation algorithms seem precisely tuned to foster angry mob dynamics. So yeah it will make the angry mob happy because it will be removing the primary mechanism for inciting angry mobs. People here know that they have…

> considering the entire objection is that recommendation algorithms seem precisely tuned to foster angry mob dynamics.

That actually wasn’t the objection in the article we’re discussing at all.

The objection is that recommendation algorithms show people more content they want to view, which leads vulnerable people (kids in this case) to consume more content.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#276

Post by nekusar »

chinathrow wrote: post #266
nekusar wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is school busses without seatbelts satire? Are motorcycles without seatbelts or harnesses satire? All im saying is that an adult should be able to choose to wear a seatbelt or not in their own vehicle. And also, shouldnt get fined for choosing to not wear one. BTW, i wear one when i drive or am a passenger. And if im driving, i ask everyone to wear one.

> All im saying is that an adult should be able to choose to wear a seatbelt or not in their own vehicle. Millions of deaths and injuries avoided as a result of seatbelts obligatory in many countries around the world do not share your world view. https://unece.org/sustainable-development/news/unece-celebra...

So, you dont care about children on schoolbusses? None of them have seatbelts.

And motorcycles are explicitly allowed, and have no restraints or harnesses. Mopeds, same. Scooters, same. Bicycles, same.

Adults *should* have the right to do risky behaviors that increases the risk of bodily injury. But no matter the link you put forth, doesnt explain why fucking schoolbusses that transport years 6-18 dont have seatbelts.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#277

Post by jrflo »

notarobot123 wrote: post #226
jrflo wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good idea, thank you for the feedback. I have a hard time finding the line between "advertising" and "sharing something I built" on this site sometimes.

but you should link to it in your bio for those of us still curious to find out what it is you built.

Thanks for asking, I put a link to my personal site in my bio if you want to find it, it's called Scrolless.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#278

Post by joshlemer »

criddell wrote: post #56
kgwxd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an adult, who despises all those apps, I don't want to grant government the power to make that decision for me.

An an adult, do you also believe seat belt laws are a bad thing?

This argument is lacking nuance. Just because there are some instances of paternalism one is prepared to accept, doesn't mean that every possible paternalist policy is always okay. Being in favour of some instances but not all, is not a logical inconsistency. We can talk about each instance on a case by case basis.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#279

Post by SirMaster »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #239
SirMaster wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neuroplasticity. Seems better than the damage caused to your lungs and cells from smoking. I mean, do you have any evidence that the brain is irreversibly damaged by social media? I have not seen any, but I have seen evidence that there is permanent cell damage from smoking.

To play devil's advocate, there are good studies linking social media use to depression. While you can somewhat mitigate the negative health effects of smoking by stopping and then making healthy decisions like doing sports and paying attention to what you eat, depression isn't something you can just stop having.

But are you saying that social media causes irreversible and permanent depression that neuroplasticity cannot ever reverse?

There is also a healthy side to social media, but not really a healthy side to smoking.

Social media helps me make and keep in touch with friends. I have not found any negatives personally. My feeds are pretty much just posts from friends. I have removed everything else by now.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#280

Post by Aurornis »

alkonaut wrote: post #267
Aurornis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm. Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too. A more accurate framing would be that they’re going after personalized recommendation algorithms. It’s not obvious that offering a recommendation algorithm would mean that the site is no lo…

> Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm Does it though? I mean by "algorithm" in this context we mean "personalized algorithm meant to maximize engagement and retention". Not e.g. "sort by upvotes and decay by time" or even "filter content based on coarse user location". Does HN show me a different front page than everyone else based on which articles I have read or upvoted? That would make me feel wo…

> Does it though? I mean by "algorithm" in this context we mean "personalized algorithm meant to maximize engagement and retention".

I addressed that in the second half of my comment already.

But yes, HN qualifies as a site that displays by algorithm. If you mean personalized recommendation algorithm then it’s important to call that out. The last thing we want is regulation so broad that it catches every site that ranks things.

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