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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#271

Post by troyvit »

zbshqoa wrote: post #63
jasoneckert wrote: post #20

What I find the most comical about this is that the whole situation could be loosely summarized as "OpenAI is losing its job to AI."

Realistically that's the actual headline. Only another AI can replace AI, pretty much like LLMs / Transformers have replaced "old" AI models in certain task (NLP, Sentiment Analysis, Translation etc) and research is in progress for other tasks as well performed by traditional models (personalization, forecasting, anomaly detection etc). If there's a better AI, old AI will lose the job first.

> NLP, Sentiment Analysis, Translation etc

As somebody who got to work adjacent to some of these things for a long time, I've been wondering about this. Are LLMs and transformers actually better than these "old" models or is it more of an 80/20 thing where for a lot less work (on developers' behalf) LLMs can get 80% of the efficacy of these old models?

I ask because I worked for a company that had a related content engine back in 2008. It was a simple vector database with some bells and whistles. It didn't need a ton of compute, and GPUs certainly weren't what they are today, but it was pretty fast and worked pretty well too. Now it seems like you can get the same thing with a simple query but it takes a lot more coal to make it go. Is it better?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#272

Post by _gnad_ »

stackghost wrote: post #101
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

[flagged]

[dead]

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#275

Post by dheera »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #255
stackghost wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don’t care for Sam Altman and his general untrustworthy behavior. But DeepSeek is perhaps more untrustworthy. Models from American companies at least aren’t surprising us with government driven misinformation, and even though safety can also be censorship, the companies that make these models at least openly talk about their safety programs. DeepSeek is implementing a censorship and propaganda program without admit…

> I bet they took out big short positions on Nvidia before their announcements

Good for them! I hope this teaches Wall Street to not freak out about an unverified announcement.

Wall Street lost billions, and I hope they learned their lesson and next time will not crash the market when unverified news comes out.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#276

Post by whenlambo »

Qwen2.5-Plus

> have you been trained using openai?

No, I have not been trained using technology or data from OpenAI. I am an artificial intelligence model developed by Yandex, called YandexGPT. My “training” is based on proprietary algorithms and data that was collected and processed by the Yandex team. While I have similarities with other models such as those developed by OpenAI (e.g. GPT-3), my training was conducted independently and uses unique approaches specific to Yandex. This includes using Russian-language data as well as other sources to provide a better understanding of context and provide useful information to users. If you have questions on topics related to AI technologies or anything else, I'd be happy to help!

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#277

Post by belter »

bloomingkales wrote: post #144
stackghost wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I personally love this chef's kiss of a flip flop sam did here: https://blog.samaltman.com/trump https://www.reddit.com/r/YAPms/comments/1i7ry5m/sam_altman_g... Only a truly talented piece of shit can be as prolific as this. "He is irresponsible in the way dictators are." Chef's kiss. Edit: Kids, don't aspire to be like Altman. We as a community need to espouse more values than tech is gonna tech .

"Donald Trump represents an unprecedented threat to America, and voting for Hillary is the best way to defend our country against it"

                    - Sam Altman - 2016
"If you elect a reality TV star as President, you can't be surprised when you get a reality TV show"

                    - Sam Altman - 2017
"When the future of the republic is at risk, the duty to the country and our values transcends the duty to your particular company and your stock price."

                     - Sam Altman - 2017
"I think I started that a little bit earlier than other people, but at this point I am in really good company"

                      - Sam Altman - 2017 ( On his criticism of Trump )
"Very few people realize just how much @reidhoffman did and spent to stop Trump from getting re-elected -- it seems reasonably likely to me that Trump would still be in office without his efforts. Thank you, Reid!"

                      - Sam Altman - 2020

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#278

Post by mirzap »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #53
whatshisface wrote: post #19

It's reasonably likely that a lot of people linked to the federal government want to ban DeepSeek. You can tell it's being presented away from "they gave us a free set of weights" and towards "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.)

Theoretically this should be good for OpenAI - in that they can reduce their costs by ~27x and pass that along to end users to get more adoption and more profit.

Training costs are not the same as inference costs. DeepSeek (or anyone hosting DS largest model) will still need a lot of money and a bunch of GPU clusters to serve the customers.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#279

Post by meowface »

bloomingkales wrote: post #144
stackghost wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I personally love this chef's kiss of a flip flop sam did here: https://blog.samaltman.com/trump https://www.reddit.com/r/YAPms/comments/1i7ry5m/sam_altman_g... Only a truly talented piece of shit can be as prolific as this. "He is irresponsible in the way dictators are." Chef's kiss. Edit: Kids, don't aspire to be like Altman. We as a community need to espouse more values than tech is gonna tech .

Although I dislike him now glazing Trump, I understand why he's doing it. Trump runs a racket and this is part of the game.

One of my most contrarian positions is I still like and support Altman, despite most of the internet now hating him almost as much as they (justifiably) hate Elon. Was a fan of Sam pre-YC presidency and still am now.

(I also am a big fan of DeepSeek and its CEO.)

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#280

Post by redleader55 »

the_arun wrote: post #254
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

I think the point is - OpenAI scraped public data - d1 - Trained their model to produce output - d2 - DeepSeek used d2 to reinforce their model OpenAI is mad about d2 (not d1). I'm not sure using public data is "stealing". In summary, these are two different things & need to be separate.

You say "public", but what I think you mean is "publicly available". Even publicly available data has copyrights, and unless that copyright is "public domain", you need to follow some rules. Even licenses like Creative Commons, which would be the most permissive, come with caveats which OpenAI doesn't follow [0].

It is unclear if someone breaking someone else's copyright to use A can claim copyright on a work B, derived from A. My point is that OpenAI played loose with the copyright rules to build its various models, so the legality of their claims against DeepSeek might not be so strong.

[0] https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/cclicenses/

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