We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes • Hacker News Board

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#271

Post by smt88 » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 10:41 AM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #19

smt88 wrote: post #2

> Cars are the slowest, lowest-bandwidth forms of urban transportation. This is the kind of thing I read a lot in micromobility advocacy articles, but it seems like it can't be true. How can a bike, scooter, or moped be either faster or higher-bandwidth than a car? Also, serious question: if electric SDCs became widespread, would it still make sense to advocate things like bikes? You can't transport a family of three…

A lot of micromobility advocates also seem to really hate public transit for whatever reasons, even though it's often superior to cycling in time, safety, and throughput. To your second question, though, I think the answer is it depends on your intended location and use case. Most micromobility and cycling advocates want changes made to dense urban centers, which are less likely to cater to families with children. SD…

> A lot of micromobility advocates also seem to really hate public transit for whatever reasons

I haven't observed this, but it makes zero sense in the US.

The only way you could get 25+ bikes on a road in most of our cities is if they're in a very dense place with great public transit.

Otherwise, average commute distances are going to be too long for most people.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#272

Post by antientropic » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 10:43 AM UTC

sunstone wrote: post #174

While it sounds preposterous right now this problem will soon solve itself with already built "bike lanes". And bicycles are not the solution. The solution, as this article touches on, is light weight electric transport using the existing road structure. There's a strong indication of this future in the fact that last year the Dutch bought more electric bikes than normal bikes in total. And they paid twice as much fo…

> And they paid twice as much for their electric bikes ($2000) than they did for their pedal bikes. Let that sink in: The Dutch are already starting to abandon their pedal bikes.

This is nonsense. Those ebikes are pedal bikes, they're just electrically assisted up to 25 km/h. You still have to pedal to move forward. And you have to ride them on bike paths/lanes just like normal bikes. So they certainly don't enable getting rid of bike paths: mixing those 25 km/h (often elderly) ebikers with car traffic would be a disaster.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#273

Post by lm28469 » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 10:43 AM UTC

scrollaway wrote: post #190

koyote wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I don't own an ebike but I've rented an MTB ebike a short while ago and was able to comfortably do 70km while still having over 1/4 battery left. That being said, I did not have it set to the max the whole way. Mostly spent in eco mode which is more than enough

Wow, 70km! Where I live that's crossing almost half the country. I didn't know some ebikes had such a range.

Some are pretty good, I think the last one I rented had 80 to 160km range depending on the power setting/terrain. I used it to visit around my home town, climbed hills (paved and in the woods), visited small towns 35km away, climbed the steepest road (7km, 600m height difference) in the area on full power, &c. and never worried about the battery. If I ever move back to the country side I'll get one for sure. You can even remove the 25kph limit and make it go up to 50kph if you get a license plate / insurance.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#274

Post by koyote » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 10:47 AM UTC

scrollaway wrote: post #190

koyote wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I don't own an ebike but I've rented an MTB ebike a short while ago and was able to comfortably do 70km while still having over 1/4 battery left. That being said, I did not have it set to the max the whole way. Mostly spent in eco mode which is more than enough

Wow, 70km! Where I live that's crossing almost half the country. I didn't know some ebikes had such a range.

Ebikes have improved a lot in recent years. Bosch makes a large amount of the batteries used in ebikes and they have a handy website indicating what kind of range you can expect:

https://www.bosch-ebike.com/au/service/range-assistant/

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#275

Post by sunstone » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 10:48 AM UTC

stinos wrote: post #195

sunstone wrote: post #174

While it sounds preposterous right now this problem will soon solve itself with already built "bike lanes". And bicycles are not the solution. The solution, as this article touches on, is light weight electric transport using the existing road structure. There's a strong indication of this future in the fact that last year the Dutch bought more electric bikes than normal bikes in total. And they paid twice as much fo…

bicycles are not the solution ... The solution, as this article touches on, is light weight electric transport using the existing road structure. To me this sounds pretty funny: you make it sound like an electric bicycle is not a bicycle, whereas to me it's still a bicycle, just with the addition of a motor. Even a speedpedelec is normally still considered a bicycle here: after all it doesn't move unless you pedal, u…

To me there's a big difference, in terms of urban transport, between a pedal bike and an e-bike, mostly because of the acceleration capability of the e-bike, which is even better than fossil fuel engines.

My feeling is that initially the 'e' revolution will start with e-bikes but ultimately will end up with electric mopeds (no fiddly gears) and electric tricycles (two wheels at the front) with seat belts and modest roll cages.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#276

Post by Angostura » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 10:50 AM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #145

socialist_coder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mom with three young kids in tow Ha! Go see how they do it in Europe. Bike trailers, extra seats in the front & back, built in cargo decks, longer bikes; there are lots of fancy ways to load a lot of kids & cargo onto your bike. And don't forget that kids can ride their own bikes too! My kid was riding a bike with me to daycare at 3-4 years old. Your thinking is too car-centric!

Europe does not have some magical equation for drastically reducing car use. The number of cars per capita in the EU is only about one third lower than the United States. That's nothing to sneeze at, but it certainly means that the sizable majority of Europeans are still car-centric. And even then that's mostly a function of lower incomes (vis-a-vis the US). The high-income European states of Luxembourg, Switzerland,…

We have a car. My wife and I still cycle to work each day.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#277

Post by stinos » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 10:50 AM UTC

sundvor wrote: post #246

sunstone wrote: post #174

While it sounds preposterous right now this problem will soon solve itself with already built "bike lanes". And bicycles are not the solution. The solution, as this article touches on, is light weight electric transport using the existing road structure. There's a strong indication of this future in the fact that last year the Dutch bought more electric bikes than normal bikes in total. And they paid twice as much fo…

I think you're confusing ebikes with motorbikes. Ebikes are restricted to 25km/h, at least in my region. You sometimes see them going faster so you know they've been modded or aren't compliant. A lot of ebike riders are going faster than their skills would suggest, i.e. no time to build up experience of safe riding. I accelerate faster than many ebikes, on my CX bike (which is vastly better than your typical Amsterda…

You sometimes see them going faster so you know they've been modded or aren't compliant.

Well, except when going downhill. Or just because the cyclist puts some effort into it and rides faster, which isn't impossible at all on flats.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#278

Post by sunstone » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 10:51 AM UTC

jakecopp wrote: post #203

sunstone wrote: post #174

While it sounds preposterous right now this problem will soon solve itself with already built "bike lanes". And bicycles are not the solution. The solution, as this article touches on, is light weight electric transport using the existing road structure. There's a strong indication of this future in the fact that last year the Dutch bought more electric bikes than normal bikes in total. And they paid twice as much fo…

So...electric motorbikes means you don't need bike lanes? Why don't we put children on motorbikes again? NHTSA: "For every mile traveled, motorcyclists have a risk of a fatal accident that is 35 times higher than a car driver." [1] In my experience, light weight electric transport mingles great with bikes, as long as they're limited to something reasonable. I can clock up pretty high speeds on a normal bike! So no -…

Sure, we'll still need bike lanes for pedal bikes.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#279

Post by fourneau » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 10:54 AM UTC

Fricken wrote: post #178

fourneau wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s definitely not impossible, but it’s riskier. My point is that we default to easy and comfortable when given a choice, and cycling in -42 is neither. We won’t see mass adoption of cycling in these areas, regardless of infrastructure, unless we forced people to do it... and I don’t think pushing the majority of people towards enduring that kind of weather is something we should do, when there are alternatives.

Learning to read isn't easy or comfortable, so we force everyone to do it, because most would default to illiteracy if we didn't. Not destroying the planet is even more important than literacy.

Sure, no disagreement there. I’m not arguing against bikes but we should also be heavily investing in other forms of mass transit.

You bike in during the dead of winter, and that’s amazing. But how long is your bike ride in? How far out of the city do you live? Would you still do it if your commute was double?

Additionally, in Ottawa, many people live far out of the city and commute in via the highway for 30-40 minutes by car because it’s more affordable than living in the city. The bike ride is well over two hours. They will need other solutions as well.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#280

Post by mcv » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 10:55 AM UTC

Svip wrote: post #247

rapnie wrote: post #232

What I see a lot in this thread is people's either/or opinions. Love cars / hate bycicles or vice versa. No. It is a balancing act, where cars, bycicles and public transport co-exist, and infrastructure is developed strategically in smart ways and in a prolonged effort. When I was young in The Netherlands for the most part the cars still dominated the streets. Over time I've seen cities and road networks gradually be…

It really helps that in neither Denmark nor the Netherlands, helmets are mandatory. Unlike in say Sweden, where casual biking is having a hard time taking off. But it kind of bothers me that Danes and Dutchmen seem to be rather disinterested in one another's achievements on this front. There is a lot of lessons from both sides, that never seems to be discussed in one another's media, to the point (anecdote alert!) wh…

I think cycling is inherently more a local thing than cars. Nobody needs interstate or international bicycle paths, because nobody cycles that far. So it makes sense that the interest is more local, and maybe that's also why smaller countries like Denmark and Netherland are more successful at it.

Bicycle infrastructure is primarily about towns and cities. So if you want this big push, you have to do it at the city level, but not just a bike path here or there, but redesign the entire city for bicycles. Have bike thoroughfares, make sure bikes are the best way to get around the center, and for any kind of traffic that stays within a town or borough. Cars are only for getting out of the city.

Many Dutch towns are increasingly redesigned with that idea in mind, most thoroughly perhaps the town of Houten[0], where the only way to get anywhere by car is to take the ring road, whereas bikes get quick shortcuts through the center. That makes bicycles attractive and keeps the pollution from cars out of the center. Travel within the town will favour the bike because it's easier and quicker than a car, which reduces the amount of car traffic, and reduces congestion and pollution.

That's the level at which you need to address this. Well, that and revoking any national helmet laws for bikes, because that's been shown to keep people in cars.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houten