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We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

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Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#241

Post by TulliusCicero »

chrisco255 wrote: post #216
TulliusCicero wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Eisenhower wanted the interstate system to go between cities, not through cities. And it's the latter that's the real problem. That we have freeways between cities is no real issue for bikes, in Germany they have the Autobahn system and they still have reasonably bike friendly cities like Munich. Similar situation for Dutch cities IIRC. But the autobahn system doesn't cut through the middle of cities in Germany n…

Germany has a fraction of our population. In 1950 the U.S. had 150 million people. Today it has 320 million. The interstates were largely built outside of urban cores but sprawl often took them over. Most European cities were built before the car. Their grid and design is totally different than U.S. cities. Autonomous buses are an ambitious but realistic solution to people's transportation needs based on the reality…

It's a fixable problem, long term. Bikes aren't super dependent on high density like a subway, even the relatively low density of many US suburbs can work okay if the infrastructure is good, and you allow POI (like shops/restaurants) within a reasonable distance. That would necessitate zoning changes, but it's easier to achieve than overall density changes.

If you look at cities that DO have good infrastructure, they have relatively high bike rates even without being particularly high density, like Davis, CA, or Portland. The idea that it just can't happen in US cities is not borne out by the facts.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#242

Post by kaybe »

fiblye wrote: post #221
jakecopp wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars kill 65% as many people as skin cancer in Australia. Skin cancer is estimated to kill 1,725 in Australia in 2019 [1]. During 2018 there were 1,135 road deaths [2]. I think we could reduce the number of road deaths far faster than the number of skin cancer deaths would increase. [1]: https://melanoma.canceraustralia.gov.au/statistics [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_i...

Honestly, that's impressively high. Imagine how much worse it'd be if everyone spent their days walking around in the sun. There'd be more than enough skin cancer to offset the lost road deaths.

Would shading all (/the majority) of the bike lanes be prohibitively expensive or doable? Encountering a problem should not make us come to a full stop and give up.

edit: Or bicycles with roofs, similar to the car solution?

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#243

Post by YawningAngel »

sunstone wrote: post #174

While it sounds preposterous right now this problem will soon solve itself with already built "bike lanes". And bicycles are not the solution. The solution, as this article touches on, is light weight electric transport using the existing road structure. There's a strong indication of this future in the fact that last year the Dutch bought more electric bikes than normal bikes in total. And they paid twice as much fo…

I'm not sure this is true. I average faster than the maximum speed of electric bikes cycling my commute, and I do not feel remotely safe in city traffic. Drivers don't have a problem with slow cyclists, just cyclists in general.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#244

Post by ivanhoe »

systemtest wrote: post #169
cgrealy wrote: post #3

I live in Christchurch, NZ. After a massive earthquake in 2011, I had high hopes that we might redesign the city for the next 100 years instead of the previous 50 (i.e. for people, not cars). Instead the city council built a few bike lanes and even then people lost their goddamn minds. "You're taking away parking space!" "All these bike lanes are slowing traffic" "No one wants to bike into the city" Meanwhile, cyclis…

I live in a 750 year old European city. The medieval center is 1 kilometer in diameter. They wanted to make the center accessible only for cars of residents and suppliers of stores (up to 11am for suppliers). There are four underground parking garages directly surrounding the center and the walking distance from a garage to any location is never more than 450 meter. Free wheelchairs are provided from the garages. Thi…

In 1438 there was no supermarkets with huge parking lots that will lure away all your customers. It's not just that people will have to walk to you (so competition located closer will win), they will also have to carry the stuff they buy back to the car, so they'll probably not be willing to buy a lot, or anything heavier. If you're selling souvenirs or t-shirts it's not a big deal, but for people selling say wines or craft beer or olive oil, you probably want people to be able to buy a few bottles, so distance is a problem.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#245

Post by ben_w »

greglindahl wrote: post #230
AstralStorm wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably a function of distances between living space and work. Beyond 10 km the car catches up and starts to get ahead in total travel time. Public transport is meant to close this gap but there's not enough for people, much less bicycles, especially long distance. So it gets crowded. The car is universal until you run out of parking space.

Do roads not get crowded where you live? Here in Silicon Valley, there's no more room to widen 101.

Roads always get crowded; broadly speaking, making them wider increases the number of people willing to use them until they fill up again.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#246

Post by sundvor »

sunstone wrote: post #174

While it sounds preposterous right now this problem will soon solve itself with already built "bike lanes". And bicycles are not the solution. The solution, as this article touches on, is light weight electric transport using the existing road structure. There's a strong indication of this future in the fact that last year the Dutch bought more electric bikes than normal bikes in total. And they paid twice as much fo…

I think you're confusing ebikes with motorbikes.

Ebikes are restricted to 25km/h, at least in my region. You sometimes see them going faster so you know they've been modded or aren't compliant.

A lot of ebike riders are going faster than their skills would suggest, i.e. no time to build up experience of safe riding.

I accelerate faster than many ebikes, on my CX bike (which is vastly better than your typical Amsterdam upright bike), and will peak around 30-35 for bursts when in traffic as needed. Having said that I ride hard even though unfit, and have to avoid the typical bike lanes as they're just too slow for my liking - taking the longer way home is less stressful.

I like your points about getting rid of exhaust fumes, but why stop at sub 125cc..

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#247

Post by Svip »

rapnie wrote: post #232

What I see a lot in this thread is people's either/or opinions. Love cars / hate bycicles or vice versa. No. It is a balancing act, where cars, bycicles and public transport co-exist, and infrastructure is developed strategically in smart ways and in a prolonged effort. When I was young in The Netherlands for the most part the cars still dominated the streets. Over time I've seen cities and road networks gradually be…

It really helps that in neither Denmark nor the Netherlands, helmets are mandatory. Unlike in say Sweden, where casual biking is having a hard time taking off.

But it kind of bothers me that Danes and Dutchmen seem to be rather disinterested in one another's achievements on this front. There is a lot of lessons from both sides, that never seems to be discussed in one another's media, to the point (anecdote alert!) where I've seen people in either country be surprised that there is a similar biking culture in the other country.

And people still love their cars in either country, even though I believe it's even more expensive to own a car in the Netherlands (and I thought Denmark was pricey!).

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#248

Post by adrianN »

ivanhoe wrote: post #244
systemtest wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a 750 year old European city. The medieval center is 1 kilometer in diameter. They wanted to make the center accessible only for cars of residents and suppliers of stores (up to 11am for suppliers). There are four underground parking garages directly surrounding the center and the walking distance from a garage to any location is never more than 450 meter. Free wheelchairs are provided from the garages. Thi…

In 1438 there was no supermarkets with huge parking lots that will lure away all your customers. It's not just that people will have to walk to you (so competition located closer will win), they will also have to carry the stuff they buy back to the car, so they'll probably not be willing to buy a lot, or anything heavier. If you're selling souvenirs or t-shirts it's not a big deal, but for people selling say wines o…

From what I've heard shops tend to benefit when cars are banned, because more people spend more time in the area.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#249

Post by jnty »

ivanhoe wrote: post #244
systemtest wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a 750 year old European city. The medieval center is 1 kilometer in diameter. They wanted to make the center accessible only for cars of residents and suppliers of stores (up to 11am for suppliers). There are four underground parking garages directly surrounding the center and the walking distance from a garage to any location is never more than 450 meter. Free wheelchairs are provided from the garages. Thi…

In 1438 there was no supermarkets with huge parking lots that will lure away all your customers. It's not just that people will have to walk to you (so competition located closer will win), they will also have to carry the stuff they buy back to the car, so they'll probably not be willing to buy a lot, or anything heavier. If you're selling souvenirs or t-shirts it's not a big deal, but for people selling say wines o…

Why would you drive into the medieval centre of a city to do a large supermarket shop if you can drive to an out-of-town one already?

Studies show that - particularly in Europe - most people are already walking to these shops everywhere. The 'weekly shop' is not really a thing that inner-city dwellers tend to do that often - they either rely on deliveries (cheap and efficient due to density) or smaller shops throughout the week (which often means less perishables waste.)

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#250

Post by sokoloff »

socialist_coder wrote: post #112
inertiatic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live and travel around Europe. Seeing parents riding with their very young kids is not too common a sight and every major city I've been to has traffic problems, because a whole lot of people do want to use cars and do value their convenience. Whether that's a bad thing or not is another discussion but don't try to present Europeans as some sort of superhumans.

I only have experience with Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, and Amsterdam; but if you sit outside of a daycare in those cities in the morning you can see the multitude of people who ride their bikes to drop off their 1, 2, and sometimes 3 kids at daycare. Those cities do cycling right and it shows. So I would disagree with you. The traffic problems are caused by having cities that are only setup to make cars convenient and…

Your last line is the issue that annoys people. It often lands like “rather than focusing on making other means more convenient, we’re going to focus on destroying the existing convenience to make alternatives more competitive.”

A certain amount of that, as an unavoidable byproduct, is okay with most people. What’s not ok is the perceived (or real) gratuitous destruction of convenience.

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