Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#271

Post by bayesian_horse » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:45 AM UTC

Aromasin wrote: post #224

fiblye wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>unique to Chinese and not other international students. It’s really not. All wealthy international students are getting passed with As and pats on the back for cheating and doing no real work. It just seems worse with Chinese because they currently make up most of the foreign student base. And political activism and silencing others on behalf of the CCP is an issue, but I’ve seen disproportionately way more student…

I can back that up with a different anecdotal experience not including the Chinese. Many of the students on my course were wealthy Emirati and Saudi students. They were quite open about the fact that most of them paid people to write their dissertations and other assignments for them. It was seen as a symbol of wealth who could get the most qualified person to do their work for them. None of them turned up to lecture…

In my opinion the "targeting minorities" excuse is bullshit.

It's always something else, but that excuse is somehow more palatable. In this particular example I'd assume it's really about the money and the amount of ruckus those students and their well-connected parents will raise. Maybe it's not even that much about the money and more about the giant rectal pain genuinely powerful people with an outsized sense of entitlement can be.

Not related to Academia or Chinese or Emiratis, but the epic feud between Switzerland and the Gaddafi Clan about the treatment of the latters' servants/slaves comes to mind.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#272

Post by bayesian_horse » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:51 AM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #249

kuzehanka wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about societies being different. It's about Chinese international students engaging in blatant plagiarism, refusing to participate in classes, completely refusing to integrate, engaging in pro-chinese anti-local political activism, and basically expanding the CCPs political reach into foreign universities. This is something that all tertiary educators are painful aware of, as is the reluctance of faculty to…

> It's about Chinese international students engaging in blatant plagiarism, refusing to participate in classes This is not only blatantly untrue, but insanely racist.

It's both true and not racist. It would be racist to attribute that the observed behavior is due to genetic, ethnic or cultural reason.

In my opinion racism is about making value judgements across ethnic lines. First you draw a line along an ethnic distinction (maybe Chinese/Westerners). Second you make value judgement in the form of "one side has higher character". And third, possibly, you apply that value judgement to some other area or act on it.

Without a value judgement there can be no racism. Now, plagiarism is mostly seen as a negative behavior, but I don't get the feeling that the OP wanted to make a point about the Chinese students' character or their virtues.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#273

Post by bayesian_horse » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:52 AM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #254

kuzehanka wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/ucla-cheating/ https://www.smh.com.au/national/melbourne-uni-probes-inside-... https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/04/international-stude... https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/exclusive-buying... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty#Demographi...

Hundreds of thousands of Chinese students go abroad to study every year. Some of them cheat. Some of them get caught cheating. Some of those cheating scandals make the news. Guess who also cheats? People of every ethnicity and country. It is true that test prep is a big deal in China. If there's a test to get into a top university, students are going to study like mad to pass that test. You're portraying that as a ba…

I don't even see them making the point that Chinese students cheat more than others.

But there seems to be a persistent story of political activism and bullying that is pretty unique, and it seems to stem from organized politics rather than individual action.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#274

Post by bayesian_horse » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:54 AM UTC

_lessthan0 wrote: post #218

bayesian_horse wrote: post #89

A well-known Youtuber called Serpentza recently made a video about how Chinese students don't assimilate into American culture and how it is made difficult for them to assimilate, partly due to overt action from the Chinese government. For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just that their spoken, written and body language is so much different tha…

For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't mean that in a judgmental way, just that their spoken, written and body language is so much different that it is automatically harder for them. It doesn't help that they are told by the educational system and state media how great China is and how bad the US. This is like me studying in the UK, meeting or bumping into US students. Very loud…

In Europe we generally see more drunken Brits, especially in the typical vacation spots. But I'd never say they have worse character or more prone to drunken bad behavior than others.

It's almost always a selection bias, where a certain type of people is drawn to a certain place.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#275

Post by bayesian_horse » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:56 AM UTC

msie wrote: post #268

bayesian_horse wrote: post #89

A well-known Youtuber called Serpentza recently made a video about how Chinese students don't assimilate into American culture and how it is made difficult for them to assimilate, partly due to overt action from the Chinese government. For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just that their spoken, written and body language is so much different tha…

I don’t know what you are arguing for but let’s have some perspective here. Chinese people have been immigrating to North America for over a hundred years and have been successful despite differences in culture etc. It was more difficult back then too.

I didn't say it's impossible or doesn't happen.

With the Chinese foreign students it just seems to happen a lot less and that seems to be by design.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#276

Post by bayesian_horse » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:58 AM UTC

rat9988 wrote: post #241

kuzehanka wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you try to leave China, you're checked against a no-exit list and simply prevented from leaving if you're on it. No reason need be given to you. China currently keeps a number of political hostages this way and prevents undesirable nationals from leaving the country. Most countries try to prevent undesirables from entering, china allows them to enter and then prevents them from leaving. https://fox8.com/2019/01/…

Don't all countries have a list of people that aren't allowed to leave because of some criminal investigation?

Not all countries apply that to dissidents. Much fewer apply this to all their relatives and many of their friends.

And Chinese get refused exit visa without there being any criminal investigation.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#277

Post by ashelmire » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

rchaud wrote: post #267

ashelmire wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> international students have some advantage that domestic students do not. They often do have more money. And rampant cheating. But regardless, Chinese students can attend any university in China or the US, while an American cannot realistically attend school in China. Obviously that means China is going to have a brighter educational future, as they use our system to advance their own.

Money doesn't make a difference in grad school because everybody is there on some kind of fellowship or research grant. Certainly no international student I've ever met, Chinese or otherwise has paid a cent of tuition past undergrad. Only exceptions would be medical school, MBA and specialist MSc programs offered through business schools.

> Money doesn't make a difference in grad school

It makes a very big difference in getting there.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#278

Post by inflatableDodo » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 12:20 PM UTC

Kurtz79 wrote: post #201

inflatableDodo wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When you enter the country you get a stamp with your entry date. >Doesn't this get checked when you leave, at passport control? Imagine that there is this huge underground market dedicated to solving this problem for you attached mysteriously to the entire US bar industry. edit - this is honestly the only thing that makes sense. I haven't ever done so, but brits working their US holidays and massively over staying v…

I'm not saying that something like this does not exists (and I know for certain that some people overstay their visas), but it just seems silly to me that people coming from countries with similar quality of life and opportunities as the US would risk getting caught doing something illegal, in a country that is notoriously strict on immigration matters.

Brits abroad are not commonly stereotyped for their rationality. The USA is basically viewed as a giant theme park.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#279

Post by ojbyrne » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #138

ojbyrne wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed, and the colloquialism is actually “by all accounts.” Here is one for you: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-an...

That depends a lot by what you call culturally diverse. This map makes you think that Africa is the most diverse continent of all, but the fact is pretty much only the US has and continues receiving people from all over the world, and not just neighboring countries.

Only country? You should visit Canada.