Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more • Hacker News Board

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#271

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 2:36 PM UTC

muse900 wrote: post #41

sametmax wrote: post #11

And if you think it's bad, it's even worse in Europe. Taking the French example: I'm an freelancer, but I used to have a contract with an American company. They gave me 3x the salary most of my French colleagues would get, while keeping the exact same social advantages (they paid me through a French branch). However, to them, the salary was twice lower than what they would have paid for the same guy in the Valley. No…

My example comes from Greece where I reside for the past 9 months. People owning touristic buisnesses on the islands are moaning about how much they need more staff and can't find any, and they are arguing why younger people tend to not work and just receive benefits instead of going to work. The argument here that they won't understand though is that, 1st they are paying very low. They are all willing to pay the min…

"The unemployment benefit is 400+ euros per month. So tell me who in their right minds would go to work for 500 euros or even 800 euros, whilst they have to spend petrol to get from and to work, work prolly 10+ hours a day, in the sun most likely cause thats what means tourism industry, get told by 'BOSSES' on what to do, and get treated awfully."

This is the argument for Universal Basic Income.

Give everyone something less that 400s euro, whether they work or not.

Let's say its 300 euros. Then the decision is don't work and take home 300 euros, or work and take home 800 or 1100 euros. There is a much greater incentive to work.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#272

Post by workinfunk » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 2:37 PM UTC

FidelCashflow wrote: post #163

muse900 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My example comes from Greece where I reside for the past 9 months. People owning touristic buisnesses on the islands are moaning about how much they need more staff and can't find any, and they are arguing why younger people tend to not work and just receive benefits instead of going to work. The argument here that they won't understand though is that, 1st they are paying very low. They are all willing to pay the min…

Do you think that the owner(s) of the hotels shouldn't be compensated for the risk that they're taking by building and operating the property? There's a ton of risk associated with investing like that.

You're not understanding. "Risk" implies that they might not make their yearly million, that they might easily make NOTHING.

It's also independent of paying your staff a fair wage.

If all you do is sit back and collect your million per annum, then, no, lol, that's not "risk".

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#273

Post by eloff » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 2:37 PM UTC

joenot443 wrote: post #142

eloff wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bizarre. Even Amazon Seattle pays 2x the salaries of Amazon Vancouver, even although they are separated by only 200km and are the same company! I ask every Canadian developer I meet, why are you still here? I like living in Canada, so I work remotely even although I don't really like remote work. Instant 70% raise.

Do you have any tips or anecdotes on finding remote US work as a Canadian?

There's remote job boards like https://weworkremotely.com/, you can filter by remote on stackoverflow, and search remote in the monthly HN who's hiring thread.

Remote work is not for everyone, and you have to be self-motivated and disciplined. It can be a lot harder to get work-life separation.

Other than that it's no different than looking for any other kind of job, you want a strong resume and to practice the coding interview and assignments.

But stay away from companies that have a Canadian presence, they often have a Canadian HR department that sets Canadian level salary guides. If you do interview with a company like that, be clear up front that you're looking for a US level salary, not a Canadian one.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#274

Post by randomdata » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 2:37 PM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #109

Waterluvian wrote: post #39

I worked for a Canadian company that's absolutely hemmoraging talent because they refuse to pay well. I'm now paid about 50% more to work remotely for a US company in an environment that is far far more fitting of my life goals of being with my kids as they grow up. It's beyond bizarre to watch them continue to refuse to pay anyone properly despite their imminent collapse.

The Great Recession caused a huge disruption in the labor market for 7 years. Companies got used to having all the bargaining chips. My company my brother works for put in place a lot of policies during that time frame that no longer make sense. Things like making it hard to give employees raises. And setting Byzantine salary ranges based on job title.

To complicate matters, when I was a student in the public school system, economics lessons were eschewed by teachings that salary is determined by skill level, starting with the lowest skilled workers being paid minimum wage and increasing from there.

Now that my age cohort is older and the ones who are now often running the businesses, I expect many of them are still hanging onto those false ideas. If they see the work as requiring low to medium skill, they are only going to offer low to medium pay as that is what they were taught they are supposed to do.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#275

Post by ppeetteerr » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 2:38 PM UTC

mkohlmyr wrote: post #54

muse900 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My example comes from Greece where I reside for the past 9 months. People owning touristic buisnesses on the islands are moaning about how much they need more staff and can't find any, and they are arguing why younger people tend to not work and just receive benefits instead of going to work. The argument here that they won't understand though is that, 1st they are paying very low. They are all willing to pay the min…

I wonder if it's quite as simple as being reducible to salary as a single (or majority) variable. I tend to think people are willing to work a poorly paid job if there was some kind of light at the end of the tunnel (career advancement, primarily). (As a casual outside observer, and with all due respect) My bet would be that a pervasive sense of pointlessness or helplessness in society is an equal partner along with…

If people are willing to drive a truck carrying garbage and feces all day, it is about money. Maybe also about shorter work days, but that is also related to money.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#276

Post by sametmax » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 2:38 PM UTC

quotidium wrote: post #216

sametmax wrote: post #11

And if you think it's bad, it's even worse in Europe. Taking the French example: I'm an freelancer, but I used to have a contract with an American company. They gave me 3x the salary most of my French colleagues would get, while keeping the exact same social advantages (they paid me through a French branch). However, to them, the salary was twice lower than what they would have paid for the same guy in the Valley. No…

Oh, hey, wait, let's not forget the daily standup rituals of agile scrum behavior modification. Every day, justify your existence. Every day, beat that same dead horse. Every day, grab your coffee, sound off, and then listen to 20 other people bark at the empty air under their nose to show their devotion to a product that has the slimmest utility, and is coated in slippery, greasy dark patterns intended to screw the…

If the scrum has 20 people, something is really wrong.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#277

Post by tjr225 » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 2:39 PM UTC

scroot wrote: post #237

whack wrote: post #169

Expecting public companies to do anything except optimize for shareholder value, is pure folly. We can debate morality all day, but there's a more practical reason for this: shareholders hold all the power over management. Regardless of how unhappy you as a customer/employee are, you do not have the direct power to fire the directors/executives. You only have the indirect power of pressuring the shareholders, and hop…

Time to also reconsider different kinds of corporations, specifically those that are wholly owned and operated by the people who work for them.

It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to work for one.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#278

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 2:39 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #112

inertiatic wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a few notes: After a few years of full time employment I received a bit over 300 euro a month I believe, for a full year, when I was fired myself. And I believe the maximum amount of time where you can be eligible for unemployment benefits over here in Greece is a year or so. I believe a large cause for the apathy in people who you'd expect to work these jobs is the fact that working a job like that doesn't move…

> Now what's the dream for these workers? They can never afford to save up on their 500 euro a month. They can never get a loan to open their own business. Work harder. Make more money if you want to do your own thing. Surely there are professionals in Greece making good money working as employees for others. What are they doing that the lazy uneducated worker is not? Do more of that and less complaining that you're…

Read the article. Wages are lower today than they were in the 1960s. So overall, workers are making less across the board.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#279

Post by workinfunk » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 2:39 PM UTC

dmichulke wrote: post #253

Applejinx wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small business guy here. When abusive employment practices give you a competitive advantage and nothing stops you from doing them, you can indeed go and be virtuous and make less money for yourself and your business and lose all day long. At the scale of publically held companies, your bossy evilness is virtue signalling that tells the market that you are viable in the era of Uber and Amazon. Right now, as things sta…

I think you're reading a little too much into my above comment. Just to reduce my point to the basics: Either the evil guy makes lots of money (in the sense of profit) -> You start your own business in the same sector -> get some of that market share and profit -> pay your workers better -> everyone is happy except evil guy Or the evil guy doesn't make a lot of money -> He cannot pay his workers more -> He's not the…

Sure, because every low-skill, low-wage worker can plausibly start their own business to compete with the established market. What world do you live in?

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#280

Post by graeme » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 2:39 PM UTC

I've been thinking about this. Let's say a company has 1000 employees at $50,000 per year.

They were able to find enough workers at that rate. Now let's say they need 100 extra workers.

They'd expect their labour costs to go up 10%. But, it turns out there isn't a supply of 100 workers at $50,000. To pull in extra workers, they'd need to offer $60,000.

So far, so good. Extra labour costs are only $6,000,000, and only $1,000,000 are from higher wages. Prior total was $50,000,000.

But, you can't just pay the old workers $50,000. Humans don't work like that. You can't say "you were happy before, but these new people needed more money, so they get more"

Instead, you pay everyone $60,000. So your new labour costs are $66,000,000.

That's a 32% increase in wage costs for a 10% increase in labour.

Is there a name for this? And does this explain why companies avoid raising wages when they want a higher number of workers?