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The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

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Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#271

Post by pathseeker »

pjc50 wrote: post #200
Banthum wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thing that turned me against the modern left is the insistence on categorizing everyone into identity groups, and then treating their individuality as less important than the groups they represent. For example, every argument that any person has more or less of a right to speak on a given topic because of their identity markers also implicitly states that their identity markers are more important than their…

This is of course what the right has been doing for a very long time; do you think the intent behind the "Muslim ban" was based on treating people as individuals , or as members of a group?

"Muslim ban" was a term of the left. It was a country-based ban that didn't target most of the majority-Muslim countries. It was treating people as members of a group, but it was grouping by citizen.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#272

Post by ci5er »

scott_s wrote: post #156
danieltillett wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't lose empathy, but I lose the ability to understand or speak English. If someone interrupts me when I am in deep in the groove I can tell someone is talking to me, but I can't understand what they are saying and I can't reply. It takes me around 5 to 10 seconds to context switch back into English. Amusingly my wife assumes that I am deliberately ignoring her when she interrupts me and storms off in a huff half…

Is English your native language? I definitely have friction switching my focus to the other person, but it's not to the extent that I can't literally understand them. Regardless, I agree with afarrell: explain this to your wife so she can understand your behavior. If you've never explained it, she likely doesn't understand.

English is my native language, but I spent the first 10 years of my career in Japan.

I didn't really notice a difference with which language was being spoken.

My Japanese colleagues came up with a joke (?). They'd ask me something mundane (like: did you eat yet?), but since I was so zombie-like for several minutes, they would slap a post-it on me.

I felt bad about this, but I was managing a 2M line code base (C), and they 'only' had to manage 250k-or-so transistors.

I now believe (for me) that if you (one) is debugging a large code-base, taking a moment to relearn human is to be expected.

It's a self-serving belief, but I have found little evidence that it is wrong...

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#273

Post by ci5er »

danieltillett wrote: post #208
internetman55 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the truth is that you are ignoring her, right? You're focusing on whatever you're working on instead of maintaining the ability to even communicate with her. I had a job where I seemed to be evaluated primarily based on how I talked in meetings. After realizing this, I cut back on the effort I was willing to put into development, cause it would impair my ability to discuss stuff there. Unfortunately some manage…

I am not ignoring her (I will turn to her and look at her), I just can't speak or understand what she is saying. I will be looking straight at her, but I can't understand what she is saying nor reply.

This happens. It has lead to most of my workplace disfunctions. It seems that even programmers can not grok that you can't even English right now.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#274

Post by mcguire »

jochung wrote: post #78
Niksko wrote: post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

"The hard work of well intentioned people" has caused plenty of grief throughout the ages. Considering criticism off limits because it's not nice is exactly the kind of feels-first thinking that spergs abhor and which has no place in an environment where results must be delivered. It also opens the door to creating drama because of the tone of the criticism, thus missing the original point (or deliberately deflecting…

"spergs"?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#275

Post by mcguire »

catdograbbit wrote: post #169
Semkas wrote: post #18

I have aspergers, and empathize with the feeling that society doesn't much care about our struggle (or, for that matter, knows how to deal with anyone who isn't neurotypical). One thing I have come to realize though (and I know this will be controversial on here) is that SV and tech in general is this special place where people with limited social skills can go to work for really high salaries to create things of oft…

> I remember reading in a similar article that many "classical-liberal" types think that the wage-gap between man and woman may be caused by the fact that woman are naturally less competitive. Meaning that they are less careerist. This is of course a failure of meritocracy, in the same way that charisma often trumps skill at a job (which is the big problem for anti social men). How is this a failure of the meritocrac…

Are you really faster if you won the race by tripping your competitors?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#276

Post by asabjorn »

joshuamorton wrote: post #247
asabjorn wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm familiar with the research about the harms of being a minority and the impact it can have on performance, but as far as my claims about segregation go, those arguments are irrelevant. I strongly disagree. You have to respect the human in the equation if you want to facilitate inclusion, and make sure that you do everything to facilitate the change you desire. Otherwise you risk filtering for people that check t…

You've cherrypicked definitions of segregation and ghetto. I'll repeat the original definition that dictionary.com provided: > put in or restrict to an isolated or segregated area or group And here's a merriam webster definition of segregation: > the separation or isolation of a race, class, or ethnic group by enforced or voluntary residence in a restricted area Does, or does your proposal not put or restrict minorit…

Making a false statement over and over doesn’t make it any more correct. This is just ugly rhetoric which is why I stopped interacting.

As a liberal I think the left has a huge problem with this kind of narrow mindedness on what opinions one can hold and unwillingness to listen, using rhetoric to disingenuously twist someone’s viewpoint into something clearly offensive. It clearly doesn’t matter what you actually say.

The use of this kind of rhetoric seem to build upon the incorrect assumption that democracy is the default state, and that you can use this to enforce an us vs them so that it’s easier to fight a social justice war. Let’s hope the left doesn’t create an authoritarian state by systematically acting using authoritarian means.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#277

Post by joshuamorton »

asabjorn wrote: post #276
joshuamorton wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've cherrypicked definitions of segregation and ghetto. I'll repeat the original definition that dictionary.com provided: > put in or restrict to an isolated or segregated area or group And here's a merriam webster definition of segregation: > the separation or isolation of a race, class, or ethnic group by enforced or voluntary residence in a restricted area Does, or does your proposal not put or restrict minorit…

Making a false statement over and over doesn’t make it any more correct. This is just ugly rhetoric which is why I stopped interacting. As a liberal I think the left has a huge problem with this kind of narrow mindedness on what opinions one can hold and unwillingness to listen, using rhetoric to disingenuously twist someone’s viewpoint into something clearly offensive. It clearly doesn’t matter what you actually say…

This is not a constructive response, it appears to be a rant. I have no interest in continuing this discussion if you're responses will be unrelated to the content of my posts and instead be emotionally charged complaints that I'm treating you unfairly.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#278

Post by asabjorn »

joshuamorton wrote: post #277
asabjorn wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making a false statement over and over doesn’t make it any more correct. This is just ugly rhetoric which is why I stopped interacting. As a liberal I think the left has a huge problem with this kind of narrow mindedness on what opinions one can hold and unwillingness to listen, using rhetoric to disingenuously twist someone’s viewpoint into something clearly offensive. It clearly doesn’t matter what you actually say…

This is not a constructive response, it appears to be a rant. I have no interest in continuing this discussion if you're responses will be unrelated to the content of my posts and instead be emotionally charged complaints that I'm treating you unfairly.

I think we both share that feeling. Best of luck working for what you believe in. I think we’ll work for different things. :)

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#279

Post by joshuamorton »

asabjorn wrote: post #278
joshuamorton wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a constructive response, it appears to be a rant. I have no interest in continuing this discussion if you're responses will be unrelated to the content of my posts and instead be emotionally charged complaints that I'm treating you unfairly.

I think we both share that feeling. Best of luck working for what you believe in. I think we’ll work for different things. :)

To be clear: your first post described "Affirmative Action" as "bigotry, sexism, and racism". As I explained in my longer post, I was applying a similar description to your proposal.

If you're going to characterize "affirmative action" with such charged terms as "racism" "sexism" and "bigotry", do you at least see the irony in complaining when I do the same?

I'm willing to agree that your proposal is not intended to be segregation, are you willing to agree that affirmative action is not racist or sexist?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#280

Post by asabjorn »

joshuamorton wrote: post #279
asabjorn wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we both share that feeling. Best of luck working for what you believe in. I think we’ll work for different things. :)

To be clear: your first post described "Affirmative Action" as "bigotry, sexism, and racism". As I explained in my longer post, I was applying a similar description to your proposal. If you're going to characterize "affirmative action" with such charged terms as "racism" "sexism" and "bigotry", do you at least see the irony in complaining when I do the same? I'm willing to agree that your proposal is not intended to…

Nice play with the word intended. I can agree that affirmative action is not intended to be racist or sexist. It’s a tool, with positive and negative consequences. I am not saying it’s a tool that we should not use.

Unfortunately the number of Hispanic and African Americans in tech decreased between 2007 and 2015 while gender balance improved which is part of the reason why I think we need to look into other tools as well.

I think it’s worth asking oneself if our current tools are not inclusive to different viewpoints, and just filter for people that are similar to the ones already there and happen to check the right boxes.

Would someone that dresses, talks, and walks like they come from east Oakland be hired even if they were a capable engineer or have we not made ourself inclusive to that?

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