The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#201

Post by Consultant32452 » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

auxym wrote: post #82

katzgrau wrote: post #81

From one of the comments (author, Nathan Spears): > People with Asperger’s can navigate social situations remarkably well after they learn “the rules” of social interaction. That's my experience. I too, was socially awkward kid who taught himself basic programming by reading computer manuals around the age of 10. I constantly got picked on though out elementary and middle school. In high school it got a little better…

I took a quick look at the ASQ test mentioned in the article [1]. A lot of the things in there, I would have answered "definitely agree" when I was a teenager. Sometime in college, I forced myself to socialize, and did everything I could to learn what I needed to fit in. For example, I learned from the internet to dress and care for myself so I didn't look like a 17 year basement nerd, and a bunch of other things I g…

Your score was 34 out of a possible 50.

Scores in the 33-50 range indicate significant Austistic traits (Autism).

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#202

Post by mathperson » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #187

asabjorn wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that attributing this view to a whole group is likely to be neither accurate nor particularly interesting. Plenty of feminists and others seem to be waking up to the conclusions made by this piece. As much as I believe you that most people furthering this view had the best intentions, that does not stop us from critically inspecting if this idea is a good one when applied in real life. In practice th…

I reject the claim that "believe women" has turned into what the article describes, except in alarmist circles. The reactions to different accusers I think sides with me on that. Consider Weinstein vs. Franken. Reactions we're very different, in part due to the political nature, but also because the Franken accusations are less extensive than the Weinstein ones. Alarmism like that article misses the context that Fran…

Are you asking for examples of the mob-like behavior? And lack of due process? Here are some:

-Duke Lacrosse, Rolling Stone, Columbia-guy,...

In the Lacrosse case there were legal repercussions in terms of the behavior of the prosecutor AND private entities ie. Gang of 88 issuing that infamous letter. Similarly in the Rolling Stone and Columbia cases.

False witch hunts like these are indeed relatively uncommon..but they do exist and are they definitely are a function of 'believe women.' Perhaps these are unavoidable consequences of a generally good policy..but it would be foolish to ignore discussion of them entirely.

Side note: Franken was clearly pressured out by the democractic party...I doubt very much he would be free of major repercussions if he had ignored that pressure. I think he was going to be ostracized by his caucus and he saw the writing on the wall. Once those senators published that letter...he was done.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is morally wrong to disassociate from people whom you reasonably believe to have committed heinous crimes. In the words of Edward R Murrow responding to ongoing McCarthyism "We must remember always that accusation is not proof and conviction depends on due process of law." In practice, this simply becomes be cautious with leaping to judgement and exercise some common logic in weighing the credibility of accusations...like the fantastic reporters at the Washington Post did during the Roy Moore expose.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#203

Post by noobermin » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 9:11 PM UTC

Banthum wrote: post #148

noobermin wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do we have that such a perspective is removing their individuality? The argument those of us on the left make is that people's individuality, their talent etc are disregarded because of their class/attributes etc., and society as it is set-up punishes some classes while rewarding others, rather than rewarding individuals as individuals.

The main thing that turned me against the modern left is the insistence on categorizing everyone into identity groups, and then treating their individuality as less important than the groups they represent. For example, every argument that any person has more or less of a right to speak on a given topic because of their identity markers also implicitly states that their identity markers are more important than their…

At the risk of doing "no-true Scotsman", that isn't my reading of the left. The left I know dumped both Al Franken, a liberal, and Lena Dunham, a "pop feminist"[0]. The left I listen to also speaks regularly against people like Ben Carson, it's not like just because someone is in an identity group they are automatically believed/revered, their point of view/character/deeds are taken before their group.

For "whites shouldn't talk about racism", I think that is sort of a mischaracterization of what people say. People should realize that they cannot fully appreciate things outside of their experience. That's a logical thing, not a leftist thing.

[0] Not sure how else to describe her.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#204

Post by asabjorn » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #187

asabjorn wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that attributing this view to a whole group is likely to be neither accurate nor particularly interesting. Plenty of feminists and others seem to be waking up to the conclusions made by this piece. As much as I believe you that most people furthering this view had the best intentions, that does not stop us from critically inspecting if this idea is a good one when applied in real life. In practice th…

I reject the claim that "believe women" has turned into what the article describes, except in alarmist circles. The reactions to different accusers I think sides with me on that. Consider Weinstein vs. Franken. Reactions we're very different, in part due to the political nature, but also because the Franken accusations are less extensive than the Weinstein ones. Alarmism like that article misses the context that Fran…

Some prominent examples of the lack of due process and mob-like behavior below, and this is just the top of the iceberg.

Edit: My exact point is that in these cases it seems like the employer in question announced that they believed the accuser before looking into both sides and the evidence.

As a disclaimer I don’t know the truth of Smiley’s or Lizza’s cases; I don’t have enough detail to form an opinion. And yet, that in itself seems disturbing. It seems safe to say that few of these men will ever work in journalism again; there is a blacklist, and unless they can conclusively clear themselves, most of their names are on it.

## Lizza in the New Yorker

After what appears to have been a fairly brief investigation, it announced that Lizza was a sexual abuser, but left the rest of us to guess at what sort of abuse might be involved. Lizza, meanwhile, says: “The New Yorker has decided to characterize a respectful relationship with a woman I dated as somehow inappropriate. The New Yorker was unable to cite any company policy that was violated. … This decision, which was made hastily and without a full investigation of the relevant facts, was a terrible mistake”.

## Tavis Smiley of PBS reports a similar experience:

Quote from Tavis: "PBS launched a so-called investigation of me without ever informing me. … Only after being threatened with a lawsuit, did PBS investigators reluctantly agree to interview me for three hours.

If having a consensual relationship with a colleague years ago is the stuff that leads to this kind of public humiliation and personal destruction, heaven help us. The PBS investigators refused to review any of my personal documentation, refused to provide me the names of any accusers, refused to speak to my current staff, and refused to provide me any semblance of due process to defend myself against allegations from unknown sources. Their mind was made up. Almost immediately following the meeting, this story broke in Variety as an “exclusive.” Indeed, I learned more about these allegations reading the Variety story than the PBS investigator shared with me, the accused, in our 3 hour face to face meeting."

## The times star political reporter Glenn Thrush

At the times star political reporter Glenn Thrush is under investigation. Thrush apparently is accused of hitting on younger women who work in his industry, and occasionally at his outlet, though he had no managerial power over them.

Megan McArdle had a couple of opinion pieces that also explain this better than I can here in [1] and [2].

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/consider-... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-18/the-curre...

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#205

Post by noobermin » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 9:17 PM UTC

dcow wrote: post #135

noobermin wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do we have that such a perspective is removing their individuality? The argument those of us on the left make is that people's individuality, their talent etc are disregarded because of their class/attributes etc., and society as it is set-up punishes some classes while rewarding others, rather than rewarding individuals as individuals.

Plenty of level-headed people on the right see things exactly that way too. What kills us, or at least me (I'll identify for the purpose of this argument), is trying to figure out why people "on the left" are so focused on fixing the symptoms by way of "reverse discrimination" (i.e. affirmative action) instead of focusing on ensuring that we continue to see people as unique individuals instead of–what we feel is the…

The reason is because you really can't change hearts. "Metoo" is the sort of thing that is slowly changing attitudes around sexual assault, but such movements aren't easy to enact. Changing hearts is hard. Black slaves were liberated at the end of the civil war, but after the reconstruction, we had to wait almost 100 years before the civil rights movement ended Jim Crow, and even today, there are persistent racial issues. You can't easily change social attitudes that have existed for hundreds of years over a handful of decades. And those attitudes have readily observable effects on real people.

You can't change the hearts of people easily, although attitudes slowly change over time. When you can't change people's attitudes, the best you can do is make laws, rules, and policies that alleviate some of the ills, until we reach a place where we achieve a more equal society.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#206

Post by danieltillett » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #156

danieltillett wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't lose empathy, but I lose the ability to understand or speak English. If someone interrupts me when I am in deep in the groove I can tell someone is talking to me, but I can't understand what they are saying and I can't reply. It takes me around 5 to 10 seconds to context switch back into English. Amusingly my wife assumes that I am deliberately ignoring her when she interrupts me and storms off in a huff half…

Is English your native language? I definitely have friction switching my focus to the other person, but it's not to the extent that I can't literally understand them. Regardless, I agree with afarrell: explain this to your wife so she can understand your behavior. If you've never explained it, she likely doesn't understand.

Yes English is my native language.

As for the wife I have explained it to her on many occasions, but she thinks this is just an excuse that I have made up to allow me to ignoring her :)

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#207

Post by joshuamorton » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 9:19 PM UTC

asabjorn wrote: post #204

joshuamorton wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I reject the claim that "believe women" has turned into what the article describes, except in alarmist circles. The reactions to different accusers I think sides with me on that. Consider Weinstein vs. Franken. Reactions we're very different, in part due to the political nature, but also because the Franken accusations are less extensive than the Weinstein ones. Alarmism like that article misses the context that Fran…

Some prominent examples of the lack of due process and mob-like behavior below, and this is just the top of the iceberg. Edit: My exact point is that in these cases it seems like the employer in question announced that they believed the accuser before looking into both sides and the evidence. As a disclaimer I don’t know the truth of Smiley’s or Lizza’s cases; I don’t have enough detail to form an opinion. And yet, t…

You didn't address my questions. You've given some instances where you don't believe you have enough information to draw a conclusion, but where you also admit you don't have all the information that the employer did. Is your claim that PBS, the New Yorker and the NYT did not investigate?

In other words, why is your reaction to take Lizza or Smiley at their word when they say that their employer is lying, but not take the employer at its word when it claims that Lizza and Smiley do something that is objectionable? As far as I can tell, you have an action by an employer and a statement by an employee, and are claiming from that that the employer didn't have enough information to act. How can you know that?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#208

Post by danieltillett » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

internetman55 wrote: post #129

danieltillett wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't lose empathy, but I lose the ability to understand or speak English. If someone interrupts me when I am in deep in the groove I can tell someone is talking to me, but I can't understand what they are saying and I can't reply. It takes me around 5 to 10 seconds to context switch back into English. Amusingly my wife assumes that I am deliberately ignoring her when she interrupts me and storms off in a huff half…

Well, the truth is that you are ignoring her, right? You're focusing on whatever you're working on instead of maintaining the ability to even communicate with her. I had a job where I seemed to be evaluated primarily based on how I talked in meetings. After realizing this, I cut back on the effort I was willing to put into development, cause it would impair my ability to discuss stuff there. Unfortunately some manage…

I am not ignoring her (I will turn to her and look at her), I just can't speak or understand what she is saying. I will be looking straight at her, but I can't understand what she is saying nor reply.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#209

Post by yorwba » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

ioult wrote: post #155

greenrd wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. So what specifically do we need to do in tech? This is all very vague generalities at this point.

> Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. Dismissing opnions you disagree with as inconsequential or belonging to some agenda is essentially the core of political correctness. (At least if with the definition of "things hard to talk about", rather than which words to use). > So what specifically do we need to do in tech? What to do isn't the problem. Not only can you find far better writing on the subject in t…

> For a women to have be able have the same experience they would have to engage in a largely male dominated culture ...

I'm not so sure about that. While my initial contact with programming was via other boys in school, most of the following journey I spent absorbing knowledge from faceless entities on the internet. I think that kind of development is quite common among the early starter/hobbyist programmer types. Maybe it's just that initial opportunity of contact that makes all the difference, but otherwise I think hacker culture is pretty ungendered in the interactions of its members.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#210

Post by noobermin » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #192

joshuamorton wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not particularly. We do it all the time when the free market misses some context. I see no major difference between a carbon tax and an affirmative action policy. In both cases, the naively optimal action misses some important context, so the system is then tweaked to modify the outcome to take the external factors into account. Do you have any alternative that isn't isomorphic to affirmative action?

The better alternative would be to improve the situation where the original injustice occurs, not sometime later in the pipeline. E.g. affirmative action in university admissions assumes that members of traditionally underprivileged groups did not have the opportunity to display their full potential and will have higher peak performance than their current scores suggest. While this is true on average and affirmative…

It would be a better alternative, but we can't go back in time and stop the Dred-Scott v. Stanford or just generally stop the enslavement of Africans in America. Also, things like universal free college, more funding of public schools, end to segregation would do a lot to "fix things," and that's why I fight for such things.

Affirmative action is one of the weakest things we can do, but it's what we have now and I support doing what you can.

Btw, your point about AA helping privileged members in unprivileged groups rings true, which is part of why I think it's the weakest thing we could do.