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The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

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Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#121

Post by orangea »

greenrd wrote: post #113
ioult wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also beggars the question. Although very non-PC. That were I a girl I would not be dissuaded from this course. I know this because there was literally zero support from anyone regarding computing as a hobby or profession. In fact the opposite, they actively fought against it. That's not "non-PC" on Hacker News. A lot of people here belive that there are few to no legitimate reasons for women to not be programmer…

> What isn't PC on Hacker News is the idea that it isn't society who is against women as programmers, but the environment built by "us". That maybe it isn't this environment that is more accepting than all others, but that "we" just fit in. I don't find your comment un-PC, because I fail to understand it. What are you trying to say?

They are saying that people on Hacker News like to believe that the reason for the lack of gender diversity in technology culture is not due to a problem with technology culture, but rather due to a problem in other parts of society (gender norms). People on Hacker News think this because they feel safe and accommodated by technology culture and assume that it must be the same for other women.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#122

Post by greenrd »

orangea wrote: post #121
greenrd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What isn't PC on Hacker News is the idea that it isn't society who is against women as programmers, but the environment built by "us". That maybe it isn't this environment that is more accepting than all others, but that "we" just fit in. I don't find your comment un-PC, because I fail to understand it. What are you trying to say?

They are saying that people on Hacker News like to believe that the reason for the lack of gender diversity in technology culture is not due to a problem with technology culture, but rather due to a problem in other parts of society (gender norms). People on Hacker News think this because they feel safe and accommodated by technology culture and assume that it must be the same for other women.

Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. So what specifically do we need to do in tech? This is all very vague generalities at this point.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#123

Post by mpweiher »

jancsika wrote: post #71

> But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men as a homogenous category, seeing all men as inheritors of privilege and all men as possessing the masculine traits that foster toughness and resilience. Back in reality, the stereotypes of male nerds/geeks are: * not interested in activities that leverage ma…

> Nevertheless they come with enormous empathy

Where? I find the exact opposite to be the case.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#124

Post by [deleted] »

tajen wrote: post #89
pgeorgi wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't talking about compassion (which may differ in shape but not volume) or Taliban culture (that I know little about, nor am particularly interested in).

Sounds like a way of conveniently ignoring my point. I’m aware it’s a caveat to the narrative you explain. That’s why it’s not reasonable to dodge the caveat on the grounds that you see a difference between “compassion” and “empathy” that is so massive that it would invalidate my comment, and that no culture from Europe to Taliban were cultures you were talking about. So... what countries were you thinking of, when s…

[deleted]

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#125

Post by privacypoller »

auxym wrote: post #82
katzgrau wrote: post #81

From one of the comments (author, Nathan Spears): > People with Asperger’s can navigate social situations remarkably well after they learn “the rules” of social interaction. That's my experience. I too, was socially awkward kid who taught himself basic programming by reading computer manuals around the age of 10. I constantly got picked on though out elementary and middle school. In high school it got a little better…

I took a quick look at the ASQ test mentioned in the article [1]. A lot of the things in there, I would have answered "definitely agree" when I was a teenager. Sometime in college, I forced myself to socialize, and did everything I could to learn what I needed to fit in. For example, I learned from the internet to dress and care for myself so I didn't look like a 17 year basement nerd, and a bunch of other things I g…

Don't discount how much the things that made you a social pariah in public school make you unique and interesting by the time you hit your mid-twenties.

I played a lot of varsity sports which shielded me from much of the abuse, but otherwise was pretty different socially. When I went away to Uni I had a chance to "start fresh" and that same quirky personality, combined with forcing myself to be a little more outgoing (i.e. share my true self), went over great. A big part of it was the natural filtering of the people in my environment; a lot of the "cool" kids peak and become irrelevant after high school.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#126

Post by wonderbear »

fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

I get that feeling quite often. After a few hours of intense focus on any activity, really, it is much more difficult to engage with anyone. It leaves me feeling both disinterested in other people and easily confused in the conversation.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#127

Post by noobermin »

namenotrequired wrote: post #19
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with claiming that genetics causes the success of certain races is that there is greater genetic variation within races than between them, and that there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success. Plus that kind of thinking can lead to racist discrimination, which isn't good.

> there is greater genetic variation within races than between them This is true, which is why we can only say something useful about averages between populations, but not extrapolate to particular individuals. > there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success This is very false. IQ is largely genetic, and the biggest predictor of life success of any kind, especially in relatively…

Hmm, IQ is highly affected by environment though.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#128

Post by yorwba »

dominotw wrote: post #108
aklemm wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble I have with this quite common argument is that it is A) beside the point and B) childish. Just because men are treated badly often and that women display bad behavior often, the point here is a pretty specific type of treatment by men toward women that is unarguably bad behavior. The mature position stays focused on that because that is the priority right now, because it is severe and we are being asked t…

How is it 'beside the point', I was specifically adressing the comment in GP > delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised If we don't do that then wouldn't the obvious question be "why have women accomplished so little compared to men?". You comment perfectly illustrates that point > the point here is a pretty specific type of treatment by men toward women that is unarguably bad behavior. You are saying "women as…

> "why have women accomplished so little compared to men?"

You seem to assume that is the case, but maybe the answer is that you do not value or notice the accomplishments of women? The Nobel prizes honor one very specific kind of achievement, one that many (not all) women do not particularly strive for. You don't tend to get a Nobel as a pediatrician, but society needs pediatricians anyway.

The gender wage gap is mostly due to jobs dominated by women paying less on average, i.e. women are putting up with smaller rewards and less recognition. You can see this as a vulnerability (since it enables exploitation) or as commendable altruism.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#129

Post by internetman55 »

danieltillett wrote: post #53
fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

I don't lose empathy, but I lose the ability to understand or speak English. If someone interrupts me when I am in deep in the groove I can tell someone is talking to me, but I can't understand what they are saying and I can't reply. It takes me around 5 to 10 seconds to context switch back into English. Amusingly my wife assumes that I am deliberately ignoring her when she interrupts me and storms off in a huff half…

Well, the truth is that you are ignoring her, right? You're focusing on whatever you're working on instead of maintaining the ability to even communicate with her.

I had a job where I seemed to be evaluated primarily based on how I talked in meetings. After realizing this, I cut back on the effort I was willing to put into development, cause it would impair my ability to discuss stuff there. Unfortunately some management got quite mad cause I wasn't able to pump stuff out like before. Inside I was just like "you're the one setting the incentives here bruh" lol. I had much better quality of life when I was able to defend myself in meetings so I just stopped working hard.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#130

Post by katzgrau »

privacypoller wrote: post #125
auxym wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took a quick look at the ASQ test mentioned in the article [1]. A lot of the things in there, I would have answered "definitely agree" when I was a teenager. Sometime in college, I forced myself to socialize, and did everything I could to learn what I needed to fit in. For example, I learned from the internet to dress and care for myself so I didn't look like a 17 year basement nerd, and a bunch of other things I g…

Don't discount how much the things that made you a social pariah in public school make you unique and interesting by the time you hit your mid-twenties. I played a lot of varsity sports which shielded me from much of the abuse, but otherwise was pretty different socially. When I went away to Uni I had a chance to "start fresh" and that same quirky personality, combined with forcing myself to be a little more outgoing…

One of my favorite Oatmeal strips: http://theoatmeal.com/pl/senior_year/pe
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