As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check • Hacker News Board

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#271

Post by aganderson » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 9:43 PM UTC

The article talks about the closure of a couple of bootcamps and then holds up a few others as examples of ones that are getting it right.

However, it fails to give any solid evidence that any of these exemplar schools are any more stable/less likely to close than DBC and IY. Are they profitable or propping themselves up with VC money while trying to find product/market fit? If they're profitable, how profitable (and for how long)? What did they do to get there (layoffs, campus closures, pivots to a new focus)?

The quality of their grads aside, I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of the schools mentioned in the article also end up closing their doors in the next year.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#272

Post by jasode » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 10:01 PM UTC

dcole2929 wrote: post #268

jasode wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your group 1 people generally don't care who they work with so long as they can do the job. The problem is that by [group 2] being far more vocal they affect things like hiring, and who gets promoted which does negatively affect group 1 people. Well, G2 people have an affinity for other G2 people. That's human nature! That's not toxic. Look at the various reasons given by G2 posters in this thread: they enjoy a work…

Literally nothing in your comment rebuts my argument. It's not an issue that you want to mostly be with other G2 people. That's perfectly fine and people understand that. It's an issue when you're desire pushes all the G1 people out of the work place. I'm not going to think of programmers as musicians because they're not. They are employees of whatever company. They are there to do a job. It's great that you want to…

>wherein only people who have demonstrable interest in programming outside of work can succeed and advance.

Nobody in this thread has said this. Maybe your misunderstanding of the other side is part of your frustration on this topic?

Some have said that the self-taught programmers were better. Some have said passionate programmers were more driven to stay relevant in a changing field. Some have said they learn more from coworkers that developed interest in programming outside of college and work.

You may disagree with all 3 of those statements but none them are about dispassionate programmers not being able to succeed.

>It's an issue when you're desire pushes all the G1 people out of the work place.

This has never happened. In fact, the opposite has happened. G1 is the overwhelming norm at most businesses. To repeat -- most programmers do not view coding as a vocation. G1 programmers already fill most jobs slots.

The idea that the minority of G2 programmers want a work environment with other G2s and this is hurting G1?!? That is a complaint that's way out of proportion to reality. Literally.

Also, I'm not sure why hiring heuristics that negatively affect G1 somehow has a higher moral standing than heuristics that negatively affect G2 programmers. What about the opposite situation? E.g. G1 people say being well-balanced with non-programming activities helps them be a "better programmer". Great! Let that belief be a guide and don't hire G2 programmers since their excessive interests in computers actually makes you believe they perform worse. They are not assets. (See my previous cite to HN thread for example of this.) In those cases, G1 wins over G2 in getting the job.

>They are employees of whatever company. They are there to do a job.

The founders and many programmers would like the daily effort to be "more than a job" if possible. Sometimes, that's not possible (e.g. Walmart cashier). However, with programming, some do try to optimize for a better work environment.

>with people of the same race. Or people of the same gender. Or people of the same religion. Do you see the problem now?

Those race/gender examples weaken your argument. Having a preference for people with similar intellectual dispositions in programming is very aligned with Martin Luther King's "not being judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

>arbitrary standards that has nothing to do with their ability to do a job

Then this discussion has no resolution because in this thread, many have written about experiencing the opposite. Instead of it being an "arbitrary standard", it's been a positive correlation with performance on the job.

>what a company should be looking for is "able to do the job to whatever standard we've set"

Ok, many programmers in this thread said they prefer colleagues who enjoy computers+programming as outside interests. That's the standard that's been set. Many companies want to attract those programmers by hiring G2.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#273

Post by Joof » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 10:22 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #199

otakucode wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a smallish private university and in the first year, there were about 50 people who intended to go for a CS degree. By year 2, there were about a dozen left. Every single one that said 'I heard there were good jobs in it' was gone. CS and writing code is not like many different arenas in that if the homework takes you 8 hours to understand, then it takes you 8 hours to understand. If you don't understand it…

Math has the concept of non-compiling code: a proof that is wrong. You get partial credit if you get early steps right, and more if latter steps are right. The idea that code that doesn't compile is not worth partial credit is wrong in academics. In the real world the code needs to compile first, of course, then run. However if your professors cannot look at your code that doesn't compiler and decide how much partial…

I wish math compiled. It would be a hell of a lot easier to figure out if I did it properly. It doesn't seem feasible for most fields though.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#274

Post by nemo3141 » Sat, Aug 26, 2017, 12:01 AM UTC

phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

Do you still interview front end developers? It is absurd that, as a bootcamp grad, I am trying to get a potential opportunity from you in a thread that vilifies bootcamps but I wanted to give it a try anyway. I do have some experience and a decent portfolio. I would love to provide links and resume if you could shoot me an email at timon.park@yahoo.com

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#275

Post by ThrustVectoring » Sat, Aug 26, 2017, 1:20 AM UTC

WindyCityBrew wrote: post #267

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #4

The rapid expansion was likely a huge part of why those coding bootcamps closed. Coding bootcamps generally aren't major educational institutions - they're usually more like recruiting agencies that happen to target people who are about 9 weeks of serious effort away from being entry-level developers. That is, they're limited by the number of high-quality applicants that they can find and vet, not by the ability to r…

This makes sense to me and rings true to my own experience. I went to a bootcamp and the people that did the best were those with a good deal of prior experience, and thus able to digest the most information. Students coming with zero (or close to it) programming experience/effort didn't perform well. I'm including myself in the "good deal of prior experience" group, I did fine in the class and in my subsequent jobs.…

Yeah, one of the best-served demographics is "People who attended at least 2 years of engineering school and either did not graduate or are underemployed after graduation."

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#276

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Aug 26, 2017, 1:58 AM UTC

johan_larson wrote: post #107

The US Navy gets some IT work done by Information Systems Technicians. It's not clear from the job description, but they seem to be something between software developers and sysadmins. They have 24 weeks of training, which is comparable to a long civilian bootcamp. Anyone know if they're any good? https://www.navy.com/careers/information-and-technology/info...

Was in the navy, not as IT, but I had friends who were. Way, way, way more on the sysadmin and traditional "IT" side than software dev. I doubt most of them could code at all, other than things like simple bash scripts. Zero CS fundamentals.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#277

Post by a-kojeve » Sat, Aug 26, 2017, 2:33 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #258

ameister14 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Produce it on your own time, using no company resources. If a company claims ownership of everything you produce in your own time using your own resources, you've signed the worst contract possible and the company should go out of business. Most of the time, they claim things you make using their resources or company time. Avoiding that avoids most issues.

Anecdotal, but most companies I've worked for have policies that claim ownership of everything I produced in my own time on my own equipment. I think that's the rule, not the exception.

Definitely not the norm and probably not enforceable. I hope you find a new job!

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#278

Post by curun1r » Sat, Aug 26, 2017, 6:32 AM UTC

dcole2929 wrote: post #252

curun1r wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best developers I worked with are the self-taught guys/girls who learn on their own before they even hit the college I think this is the crux of the issues I had with bootcamp candidates. They were reasonably strong in the areas that they'd been taught, but there were gaping holes in their knowledge wherever they hadn't been taught. They could explain how to build a site with a Node backend and an Angular front…

Except most university cs programs don't teach any of those things either. I went to an excellent school for CS and we covered basically zero web concepts in our core CS classes. Sure we learned threading, but not any model that someone would actually use in real life making it at best primer for future learning and at worse worthless. I think it's an unreal expectation to think new devs from either Bootcamps or coll…

I think you misunderstood my meaning. Of course CS classes don't teach you that stuff. The point isn't that CS classes prepare you for the workplace any better than a bootcamp. The point is that the intellectual curiosity necessary to go learn things on your own is the only thing that prepares you for coming into the industry and staying relevant once you're working in the industry. And those that are curious about computers from an early age are the ones that end up in CS classes or getting jobs in the industry without a degree from a university or bootcamp. The education CS grads receive in school is mostly bonus principles that help them make sense of what they learn on their own and isn't really necessary.

I guess my point is that the people going into these bootcamps, from the ones I interviewed, didn't seem to be people with that curiosity who had taken the time to learn a bunch of stuff on their own. They seemed to be people that wanted to quickly learn to be a developer. And it's perhaps possible to cover the part of a CS degree that's actually applicable in the workplace and a few technologies in the months that students participate in these bootcamps. But it isn't possible to cover the years of independent exploration that most CS graduates did both before, during and after their degrees. That's the bulk of what makes someone qualified to work in the industry. And there aren't really shortcuts around that learning process.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#279

Post by curun1r » Sat, Aug 26, 2017, 6:53 AM UTC

arenaninja wrote: post #177

curun1r wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best developers I worked with are the self-taught guys/girls who learn on their own before they even hit the college I think this is the crux of the issues I had with bootcamp candidates. They were reasonably strong in the areas that they'd been taught, but there were gaping holes in their knowledge wherever they hadn't been taught. They could explain how to build a site with a Node backend and an Angular front…

I recently wrapped up teaching a bootcamp course. In the timeframe for teaching bootcamp students, there's no realistic way to cover load balancers or teach the event loop holistically You underestimate the time a self-taught developer would spent figuring these things out. I'm self taught, and though I think nothing of it I easily spend 4 hours on trivial things -- it had never mattered until family obligations made…

See my reply (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15104346) to another comment for a fuller answer, but briefly...

I'm not impugning bootcamps or claiming you should be teaching those concepts. I'm claiming that it takes years of independently exploring and learning concepts to be qualified for this kind of work. Most of the developers I hire and work with have been doing this kind of exploration since they were teenagers, if not before that. By the time Node, Angular or most of the technologies taught in these bootcamps came out, they would be comfortable reading docs and just figuring it out and wouldn't need a bootcamp to teach it to them.

It's an unrealistic expectation to think that people can go from zero to professional in such a short time. I honestly don't care if a junior developer knows those concepts. What I care about is that they know something other than what they were taught in the bootcamp. Show me some independent exploration that you did that wasn't required for the bootcamp which leads me to believe you can do more of it. I can pair a junior up with a more senior developer some of the time, but most of the time they're going to have to flail around and try to figure it out by themselves and I want to know that they can do it based on nothing other than documentation, trial and error rather than needing their hand held.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#280

Post by mezuzi » Sat, Aug 26, 2017, 6:54 AM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #175

TuringNYC wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a third category here too: 1. In for the money, no love for the job 2. In for the money, but also love the job, codes on spare time 3. Category 2, but no more free time (family, older parents) I was in Category 2 but now on category 3. I show up to work early, work intensely, do not waste any time, and try to leave at a normal hour. On weekends, instead of open source projects, I'm spending the time with my…

I logged in just to post this reply. Embrace the time you have left with your mother. Work will always be there, and there is no job more important than your family. Do not give on your boundaries. I spent the last 2.5 years of my mother's life (she passed away suddenly last month at the age of 59 from a brain hemorrhage) working for a startup, not making more time to spend with her because I thought I'd have at leas…

Sorry to hear that!!! I was a little kid when my grandfather died and for some reason I felt guilty and thought I had abandoned him in his last days. It was such a bad feeling and it still revisits me from time to time.