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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

nytimes.com

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#191

Post by sn9 »

atom-morgan wrote: post #172
calvinbhai wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all the points you made, except for a part of the third one. This "started coding in middle/high school or college" is a misleading metric since it assumes everyone has equal access and support to learn that way. As some one from India who never had own computer until finishing college (the early 00's), along with no internet or cell phone, I find it hard to accept/respect those people who gloat about ho…

> but without fixing this attitude of "earlier you learn, better you are" attitude This mindset seems to work rather well for more objective areas like athletics. I don't see any reason why an intellectual pursuit like programming would be any different.

Many of the greatest programmers in history started programming in adults.

See anyone you can think of from the 60s and 70s like Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#192

Post by dcole2929 »

jasode wrote: post #153
ghaff wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also comes back to broader discussions about programmers needing to have worked on this stuff since they were kids. Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything other than to have enjoyed and done well in high school chemistry prior to college or to have chemical engineering "side projects."

>Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything Computer programming as a self-motivated hobby is not unique in this. Many electrical engineers started playing with electronics as kids (e.g. disassembling radios, wiring up homemade amps, etc). Many mathematicians "play" with math as kids before they go to college and get a teaching/research position. (E.g. Andrew Wiles…

Many != all. I'm a senior engineer now only a few years removed from school but I'd never touched programming until my 2nd year in college (switched majors 3 times). I'm obviously interested in tech or I wouldn't be here but I'm certainly not spending my free time trying out new technologies or coding for fun, and honestly I never have. I care about my job, about my craft, about moving up but I get plenty of practice in the 8+ hours i spend every day at work. Outside of work I have a life that doesn't involve machines, and this idea that in order to be good at your job you need to have a burning passion for coding is unhealthy for the field. Not to mention that half of what makes a good engineer is stuff completely unrelated to how well you program.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#193

Post by psyc »

vonmoltke wrote: post #124
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

I care. For 4 years, I went to lunch with a team of "just a job" devs who only wanted to talk about celebrities, and gave me blank stares and laughed about how they "forgot all that theory stuff from college". It sucked.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#194

Post by whipoodle »

phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

Hell, I've been doing this for 13 years (professionally, more like 20 total) and at this point I only care about the money too. Everything else about this industry is not great, honestly.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#195

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

samcheng wrote: post #57
gfodor wrote: post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process. It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels. I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job…

because they know they can't make money by selling an unpaid/underpaid "opportunity"

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#196

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

jasode wrote: post #153
ghaff wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also comes back to broader discussions about programmers needing to have worked on this stuff since they were kids. Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything other than to have enjoyed and done well in high school chemistry prior to college or to have chemical engineering "side projects."

>Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything Computer programming as a self-motivated hobby is not unique in this. Many electrical engineers started playing with electronics as kids (e.g. disassembling radios, wiring up homemade amps, etc). Many mathematicians "play" with math as kids before they go to college and get a teaching/research position. (E.g. Andrew Wiles…

That's not his point.

No one expects a chemical engineering 1st year student to have mastered organic chemistry already. Just as no one expects a 1st year mechanical engineering student to thoroughly understand rigid body dynamics at age 10.

Yea maybe they built an RC plane or did some home experiments, but if anyone is doing these things at a young age they are clearly far above their peers.

> Andrew Wiles

Example here-this man is extremely intelligent, it's like using Einstein as an example that anyone can be a genius physicist that changes the world. No, they can't.

We need to just call it what it is: arrogance and gating. "If you didn't do what I did, you must certainly not be any good." Which is an absolute shame

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#197

Post by _Codemonkeyism »

otakucode wrote: post #176
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

I went to a smallish private university and in the first year, there were about 50 people who intended to go for a CS degree. By year 2, there were about a dozen left. Every single one that said 'I heard there were good jobs in it' was gone. CS and writing code is not like many different arenas in that if the homework takes you 8 hours to understand, then it takes you 8 hours to understand. If you don't understand it…

Funny, I also studied CS and philosophy and always though it an execellent combination, most people I talk to find it odd.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#198

Post by true_religion »

sn9 wrote: post #191
atom-morgan wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but without fixing this attitude of "earlier you learn, better you are" attitude This mindset seems to work rather well for more objective areas like athletics. I don't see any reason why an intellectual pursuit like programming would be any different.

Many of the greatest programmers in history started programming in adults. See anyone you can think of from the 60s and 70s like Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie.

Think of just how amazing Dennis Ritchie might have been if he had the opportunity to start computer science around the age of 6 like Mozart...

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#199

Post by bluGill »

otakucode wrote: post #176
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

I went to a smallish private university and in the first year, there were about 50 people who intended to go for a CS degree. By year 2, there were about a dozen left. Every single one that said 'I heard there were good jobs in it' was gone. CS and writing code is not like many different arenas in that if the homework takes you 8 hours to understand, then it takes you 8 hours to understand. If you don't understand it…

Math has the concept of non-compiling code: a proof that is wrong. You get partial credit if you get early steps right, and more if latter steps are right.

The idea that code that doesn't compile is not worth partial credit is wrong in academics. In the real world the code needs to compile first, of course, then run. However if your professors cannot look at your code that doesn't compiler and decide how much partial it is worth there is a problem.

That said, getting code to compile is a trivial part of the problem.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#200

Post by mipmap04 »

NoCoastCoder wrote: post #59
samcheng wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application process. It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels. I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found one qualified for a full-time job…

Because the reason people pay for them is the promise of a quick high paying job.

When I was an intern working on data warehouses, I made like $25/hr, which is pretty good for starting out. With overtime, you make pretty good morning for how little investment is required.
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