American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth • Hacker News Board

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#271

Post by Aloha » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 10:03 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #141

Aloha wrote: post #111

I learned when I was a child it was dangerous to be the smartest person in the room. It's much safer to appear to be the village idiot, or at least less bright that the brightest. I do disagree fundamentally with the concept of the evils of merit - merit is so much more than smarts and formal education, its a mix of capacity for the role, agreeability and eagerness, productivity, effort expended, grooming and appeara…

I think many find the same thing. Don't prove the teacher wrong. Too smart in a few subjects or suddenly figuring stuff out? Accusations of cheating. "You are too smart for your own good" the adults say. "Yeah, they are smart, but smart people don't have common sense and it shows" (which is really more noticing that the kid acts just like other children due to maturity levels or that they are thinking outside of the…

For me at least, its more.. don't stand out, hide in the crowd - I've never been one who's good at blending in, I don't need one additional thing to make me a target.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#272

Post by Hondor » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 10:09 PM UTC

solipsism wrote: post #81

Hondor wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the others cannot by definition (according to legal and social norms). Your argument could equally be used to justify criminalizing gay sex as long as it happens in a country where it's illegal and people generally don't like it. But really I'm not talking about sex but about sexuality. That's just what goes on inside people's minds. We aren't even tolerant of that. It's not a crime to be attracted to children but…

Your argument could equally be used to justify criminalizing gay sex as long as it happens in a country where it's illegal and people generally don't like it. No it can't. It's the notion of consent that is subject to legal interpretation. In a symmetric relationship like homosexuality how would consent apply? We think it's wrong for employers to advertise "Irish need not apply" but today employers advertise "work pe…

So you agree? Our ideas of right and wrong are largely arbitrary so we aren't actually very good people compared to our ancestors. Your main concern is that the examples I used to show that aren't as good as showing that we arbitrarily eat pigs but not dogs?

Your argument using consent seems to be more arbitrary than it needs to be. The legal definition of consent isn't the reason we don't allow those things. That's just a tool we use to decide if it's a crime. The reason we don't allow them is probably because it can psychologically harm the children. I'm not sure about the reason for animals but it's probably more similar to the reason we don't eat dogs but we do kill and torture them. That is, it's not for the benefit of the animals, but something arbitrary in our culture.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#273

Post by solipsism » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 10:31 PM UTC

Hondor wrote: post #272

solipsism wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument could equally be used to justify criminalizing gay sex as long as it happens in a country where it's illegal and people generally don't like it. No it can't. It's the notion of consent that is subject to legal interpretation. In a symmetric relationship like homosexuality how would consent apply? We think it's wrong for employers to advertise "Irish need not apply" but today employers advertise "work pe…

So you agree? Our ideas of right and wrong are largely arbitrary so we aren't actually very good people compared to our ancestors. Your main concern is that the examples I used to show that aren't as good as showing that we arbitrarily eat pigs but not dogs? Your argument using consent seems to be more arbitrary than it needs to be. The legal definition of consent isn't the reason we don't allow those things. That's…

Sorry but you aren't making much sense to me.

Our ideas of right and wrong are largely arbitrary so we aren't actually very good people compared to our ancestors.

This does not follow. The definition of "good people" hinges on a moral system, arbitrary as it may be.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#274

Post by hiram112 » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 10:34 PM UTC

s_q_b wrote: post #204

petra wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nordic countries have very high taxes("taking away one's fruits of labor"), and manage to do well.

Nordic countries have an ace up their sleeve that the United States does not: ethnic homogeneity. To acknowledge the elephant in the room, political discussion of government support policies always comes with a racial dog whistle. The subtext is that the government wants to take your money and give it to those people. It sometimes bubbles to the surface, such as with Reagan's welfare queen in a Cadillac comments, but…

I agree 100% with you w/ regards to the Nordic countries vs the US.

In that same vein, I really believe that there is a huge cognitive dissonance with many in the US, e.g. the majority of Bernie supporters, when it comes to the desire for a Nordic like social system and at the same time continued massive immigration of non-western cultures and ethnicities.

>Before the United States can implement serious welfare reform, including U.B.I., we must solve this nation's racial integration problem.

Of course, that is almost certainly not going to happen anytime soon. Tribalism in humans is not something that can easily be removed.

Just like our industry has that saying, "pick two of three when buying software: done cheaply, done quickly, and done well", we are going to need to accept that nations, at least in the near-term, can pick one of two: "socialism/UBI or massive integration of cultures".

It is common sense that a country cannot afford both. Even tiny Norway, with its vast Oil reserves, will soon have to make the choice.

Events like Brexit, Trump's rise, etc. are different manifestations of this choice being made.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#275

Post by pappyo » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 11:14 PM UTC

riskable wrote: post #225

pappyo wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just pointed out the problem with vocational education. Going to law school is a vocational education, as is getting an education to become a mechanic. Vocational educations take years (sometimes almost a decade) to complete. From the time you start your vocational education to the time you finish it, the market can drastically change (see Law and nursing). That lucrative job that you thought was waiting…

I don't think fully automated cars will have as drastic an impact on mechanics as 3D printed cars. A better question to ask is this: What happens to all the mechanics when getting an entirely new vehicle is cheaper than paying to have it fixed? The maintenance required of a 3D printed car will also probably be automated. There's no reason why we can't have robots replace tires, brake pads, and align wheels. Heck, the…

Right, so my hypothetical was more to show the lack of ability for the average person to predict the future...not actually predicting it.

And that's the biggest flaw I see with a vocational education. It's preparing yourself tomorrow for the workforce of today. It can work, but be ready to be out of a job in an instant.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#276

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Jun 19, 2016, 2:01 AM UTC

riskable wrote: post #225

pappyo wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just pointed out the problem with vocational education. Going to law school is a vocational education, as is getting an education to become a mechanic. Vocational educations take years (sometimes almost a decade) to complete. From the time you start your vocational education to the time you finish it, the market can drastically change (see Law and nursing). That lucrative job that you thought was waiting…

I don't think fully automated cars will have as drastic an impact on mechanics as 3D printed cars. A better question to ask is this: What happens to all the mechanics when getting an entirely new vehicle is cheaper than paying to have it fixed? The maintenance required of a 3D printed car will also probably be automated. There's no reason why we can't have robots replace tires, brake pads, and align wheels. Heck, the…

Maybe this is my "old man" moment, but the magical world of 3D printed self driving cars that cost nothing really sounds like the flying car articles that you find in a circa 1960 Popular Mechanics.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#277

Post by rasz_pl » Sun, Jun 19, 2016, 2:06 AM UTC

keenerd wrote: post #239

riskable wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think fully automated cars will have as drastic an impact on mechanics as 3D printed cars. A better question to ask is this: What happens to all the mechanics when getting an entirely new vehicle is cheaper than paying to have it fixed? The maintenance required of a 3D printed car will also probably be automated. There's no reason why we can't have robots replace tires, brake pads, and align wheels. Heck, the…

We already know how that is going to play out. Go ask your local radio and TV repairman. (Although they weren't helped by the fact that transistorized designs simply didn't have parts that were expected to burn out on a regular basis.)

oh, they do. Capacitors in modern switching circuits should be treated as perishable.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#278

Post by eli_gottlieb » Sun, Jun 19, 2016, 2:40 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #203

This is pretty silly. In any society, we must decide how to distribute the resources generated by that society. So you make the rules, set up enforcement, and plod along, making changes as you go, as far as you dare in the face of the inevitable political machinations of everyone involved. The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so si…

>The difference is that now the "menial" jobs are almost gone, and the higher up jobs are on the chopping block. And so the first to die off will be those without power (as usual). We can come up with all sorts of platitudes about the value of human life, but in the end it always comes down to this. Welcome to the true nature of man.

This sounds so damned edgy I'm left wondering if you just read Ayn Rand for the first time. Think things over before posting for the whole internet to see!

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#279

Post by eli_gottlieb » Sun, Jun 19, 2016, 2:53 AM UTC

guscost wrote: post #43

I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. He's done some amazing journalism with "Dirty Jobs" and his mikeroweWORKS foundation is terrific. He claims that unconditional encouragement toward intellectual dreams does not help most people, and argues that more kids should be pursuing professional trades. This overlaps with one of the better suggestions from this article. In general I think these are hit or miss, and maybe too academ…

> I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. He's done some amazing journalism with "Dirty Jobs" and his mikeroweWORKS foundation is terrific. He claims that unconditional encouragement toward intellectual dreams does not help most people, and argues that more kids should be pursuing professional trades.

Then maybe he should stand up for the interests of trades workers. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/mike-rowes-dirty-job/

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#280

Post by bordercases » Sun, Jun 19, 2016, 3:36 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #276

riskable wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think fully automated cars will have as drastic an impact on mechanics as 3D printed cars. A better question to ask is this: What happens to all the mechanics when getting an entirely new vehicle is cheaper than paying to have it fixed? The maintenance required of a 3D printed car will also probably be automated. There's no reason why we can't have robots replace tires, brake pads, and align wheels. Heck, the…

Maybe this is my "old man" moment, but the magical world of 3D printed self driving cars that cost nothing really sounds like the flying car articles that you find in a circa 1960 Popular Mechanics.

I think this is a good perspective to have, but it might dissolve when you look at the technicalities of either problem. Airspace navigation vs, say, 3D-printing the electronics and parts necessary to make what I assume are electric cars are quite different challenges.

Actually, saying that out loud makes me think that you're right.