American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth • Hacker News Board

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#221

Post by brightball » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

guscost wrote: post #43

I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. He's done some amazing journalism with "Dirty Jobs" and his mikeroweWORKS foundation is terrific. He claims that unconditional encouragement toward intellectual dreams does not help most people, and argues that more kids should be pursuing professional trades. This overlaps with one of the better suggestions from this article. In general I think these are hit or miss, and maybe too academ…

Absolutely true. It's not a matter of intelligence it's a matter of trust. Most employers I know value the employees who they know they can trust and rely on much more than the ones who think they're smarter than everyone else.

There are needs to be filled. HVAC, plumbing, electrical, carpentry, general contracting, maintenance, janitorial, painting, roofing, auto repair, etc. You don't have to be a genius or close to it to do any of the jobs.

What you do have to be to be successful long term is on time and trustworthy. You do a good job at a fair price and show up on time every day your customers will be happy and they will recommend you to other people. Most of the people I know in these fields who meet that criteria have more business than they know what to do with and actually make more money than I personally do in my "intelligent" tech job. I could make more if I moved but so could they, so that's a wash.

What blows my mind talking to these guys is that they all talk to me like they believe I'm smarter than them...and it's odd. They are perfectly successful business people but there is just the aura of talking to people who do something that you don't know much about I guess.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#222

Post by willholloway » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 4:25 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #215

willholloway wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you lived in Western style poverty? Have you mingled with those who patronize pawn shops and payday lenders? Please cite the various randomized control trials, and I would say it is far too early to draw conclusions on the effects of the medicaid expansion as it has only been two full years since rollout. I speak from experience, as someone from a wealthy family and a wealthy area that shunned the family busines…

tl;dr; Sad personal story and no stats. Also, faith healing worked for my uncle so I know that all those randomized control trials are wrong! My numbers come from the BLS Consumer expenditure survey, though they moved it and I don't know where it is now. I blogged about it and reproduced it in a graph: https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2011/why_the_poor_dont_wo... The CBO does similar calculations based directly on…

I would call it a comeback story with a happy ending, as I got to semi-retire at 31 in a beautiful place. The thing is I know I was able to do this because of the wealth effect, and not because I am personally better or more deserving. That's a point that many well off people miss.

The experience gave me insight and empathy. I really learned how the other half live. I will never be a poverty scold because of it.

I posted the story because I think your spreading incorrect information. It's not easy to be public about money troubles, something I think hurts workers and benefits the capitalist class.

I read your blog post for the second time (saw it on HN before) just now and I still don't see the mechanism by which people can choose to receive 22,000 per year by not working.

Has UBI been instituted without my knowledge?

For what must one apply to make the rational decision to not work.

Update to reply:

Ok so I read the paper, it says exactly what I state in other comments.

If your not going to work you better be in a protected group.

The paper lists 5 means tested transfer programs

Temporary assistance for needy families - this is only for people with kids and mostly single mothers

SNAP or food stamps - which isn't enough to survive off of unless your pancreas handles carbs really well

Section 8 housing - you can get on a wait list or maybe find a landlord willing to deal with you

Other than that it lists

Ss disability : you have to be disabled or severely mentally ill

Ss. You have to be over 65

Pell grants - students only

So that's it. So tell me how does a 35 year old non disabled man or woman with no kids make the rational choice to not work?

Even with subsidized housing and food and Healthcare they would still need spending money.

I'm telling you that there's a lot of people that get by with work in the informal economy and that isn't accounted for in those BLS stats.

You are right about western poverty if we tall about germany, but not us, unless you are in a protected group.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#223

Post by mgkimsal » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 4:27 PM UTC

CodexArcanum wrote: post #207

There are two rather egregious flaws in this line of thinking from the very start. The first is that "intelligence" is purely an inborn trait. That "being stupid" is a condition on par with serious mental disability. Stupidity isn't mocked by the smart to belittle the dumb. It's mocked by the majority of society to promote feelings of superiority in the mockery yes, but also to share lessons about what not to do. Any…

> Anyone (barring mental disability, and even then) can learn, and can be taught.... the vast teeming masses of "dumb people" are a lot smarter than most would believe.

I'm generally in agreement with the potential, but people need to desire to learn (or be smarter, or whatever you want to call it). There seems to have been a backlash against 'intelligence' which glorifies 'stupidity'. Not specifically with that word, but the notion of 'book learnin' being something to look down on, people getting 'too smart for their own good', etc.

There are many folks who have far less 'raw intelligence' - whatever biological component we're born with - than I do, but are far more capable because they've applied themselves far more rigorously than I have over the years. So yes, of course, almost anyone can really learn more, but they have to want to do it in the first place, and get out of whatever cultural norms bind them to their notions of looking down on intelligence (and accomplishment in general).

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#224

Post by facetube » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 4:29 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #219

willholloway wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oregon is just one program, why is life expectancy for wealthy rising, and falling for the poor? Why is the gap around a full dozen years?

Probably because the poor behave differently from the rich - they tend to overeat more, exercise less, smoke more and drink more. Also any disabled person (who probably has other health problems that reduce life expectancy) is by definition poor (poverty is defined as low market income).

All of the behaviors you cite could be caused by extreme stress, poverty, or threats to safety/well-being (rather than being a cause of poverty). I've felt it, and I've done it.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#225

Post by riskable » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 4:30 PM UTC

pappyo wrote: post #185

Spooky23 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. The billable rate for journeyman auto mechanics is $100/hr. Simultaneously, we have a massive and growing glut of trained attorneys earning nothing.

I think you just pointed out the problem with vocational education. Going to law school is a vocational education, as is getting an education to become a mechanic. Vocational educations take years (sometimes almost a decade) to complete. From the time you start your vocational education to the time you finish it, the market can drastically change (see Law and nursing). That lucrative job that you thought was waiting…

I don't think fully automated cars will have as drastic an impact on mechanics as 3D printed cars. A better question to ask is this:

What happens to all the mechanics when getting an entirely new vehicle is cheaper than paying to have it fixed?

The maintenance required of a 3D printed car will also probably be automated. There's no reason why we can't have robots replace tires, brake pads, and align wheels. Heck, they could even replace the parts that break or wear down by printing new ones on-demand.

The only parts that will still need to be stocked after 3D printed auto parts take hold is glass windows, tires, and similar components that require special manufacturing.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#226

Post by willholloway » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 4:32 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #219

willholloway wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oregon is just one program, why is life expectancy for wealthy rising, and falling for the poor? Why is the gap around a full dozen years?

Probably because the poor behave differently from the rich - they tend to overeat more, exercise less, smoke more and drink more. Also any disabled person (who probably has other health problems that reduce life expectancy) is by definition poor (poverty is defined as low market income).

It is poverty itself that creates short term thinking that leads to those choices.

This is why poverty is expensive for society, and investment by society to eliminate it would be paid back and much more.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#227

Post by grossvogel » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 4:34 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #160

I'd substitute 'wealth' for 'intelligence', and it goes much further than just American society.

In fact, I'd say the unspoken premise of the article is that economic success equals human wealth. From there, it argues mainly that economic success is increasingly determined by intelligence.

Strangely, the article ignores the strong anti-intellectual undercurrent in American culture, which may be a byproduct of these economic changes, and which seems to be the focus of many comments here.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#228

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 4:37 PM UTC

willholloway wrote: post #226

yummyfajitas wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because the poor behave differently from the rich - they tend to overeat more, exercise less, smoke more and drink more. Also any disabled person (who probably has other health problems that reduce life expectancy) is by definition poor (poverty is defined as low market income).

It is poverty itself that creates short term thinking that leads to those choices. This is why poverty is expensive for society, and investment by society to eliminate it would be paid back and much more.

No it isn't. Again, please read the RCTs I linked to. One of them addresses this exact question.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#229

Post by jasonm23 » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 4:37 PM UTC

WalterSear wrote: post #30

No, it confuses material success with human worth. And this is not a new human behaviour, it's just exacerbated by increasing inequality, and made more obvious when the rules of success change, favouring different social groups. American society's infatuation with gungho capitalism certainly plays a part (thanks, Edward Bernaise), but I'm convinced it's a hard wired behaviour, like our preference for attractive peopl…

Maybe you meant Edward Bernays?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#230

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

willholloway wrote: post #222

yummyfajitas wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tl;dr; Sad personal story and no stats. Also, faith healing worked for my uncle so I know that all those randomized control trials are wrong! My numbers come from the BLS Consumer expenditure survey, though they moved it and I don't know where it is now. I blogged about it and reproduced it in a graph: https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2011/why_the_poor_dont_wo... The CBO does similar calculations based directly on…

I would call it a comeback story with a happy ending, as I got to semi-retire at 31 in a beautiful place. The thing is I know I was able to do this because of the wealth effect, and not because I am personally better or more deserving. That's a point that many well off people miss. The experience gave me insight and empathy. I really learned how the other half live. I will never be a poverty scold because of it. I po…

No, we don't have a UBI. We have a ragbag of cash and in-kind transfers that add up to approx $20k. Go read the CBO study I linked to, it explains in detail.

Why do you keep ignoring the research I've posted, and continue spreading myths? What do you gain from it?