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Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

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Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#261

Post by johnisgood »

jrflowers wrote: post #254
johnisgood wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstood me, then. Therapeutic doses of opiates do not cause respiratory depression, overdoses do, similarly to how acetaminophen overdoses cause hepatotoxicity, except this is not true, because regular consumption of acetaminophen causes hepatotoxicity, too, whereas opiates, when taken as prescribed, do not cause respiratory depression, in case of opiates, ONLY overdoses do, and therein lies the huge differ…

Oh I know that you’re correct, your phrasing was just hilarious. Under the caveats of a competent physician and a completely med-compliant patient, opiates are perfectly safe. Those are enormous caveats though, given the history and prevalence of incompetent physicians and noncompliant patients (at least in the US). Generally if you see someone complaining about opiates being dangerous, they’re likely factoring in op…

> Oh I know that you’re correct, your phrasing was just hilarious.

My bad. :P

But yeah, I agree. Eastern Europe is on the other spectrum with regarding to opiates. They do not even get prescribed codeine, regardless of severity of pain. You will get naproxen instead along with a possible stroke. :D

> context of society

I would hope so. According to my experiences here on HN, they (some people) just decided opiates are bad (because of "junkies") and that was it.

But yeah, people made opiates look terrible and it is a bummer, it is another case of "this is why we can't have nice things". Kratom is legal here (for now) and people with pain use it, but probably will be taken away from them sooner or later.

In any case, thanks for the reply, pleasantly surprising!

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#262

Post by albedoa »

protonbob wrote: post #143
panarky wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying "The risk of a traffic accident on the way to the hospital is unacceptable so I'll make her walk 12 miles to the hospital." Walking 12 miles is not only uncomfortable, it is also higher risk to Mom and baby than driving. You have to balance all the risks and benefits.

Right. And the benefits for tylenol are small.

Dude. That ignores one half of the analysis that we are discussing here.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#263

Post by tialaramex »

piker wrote: post #231
tialaramex wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Paracetamol was invented today it would likely never receive an OTC (over the counter sale, meaning you can just buy it from a retail outlet the way you'd buy cough medicine or toothpaste) license in the UK. Yes, it's safe (and for a bunch of people including me, effective) at the licensed dose, but it's useless at about half that dose, and it's toxic, leading to very nasty deaths in some cases, at just about 3-4…

Always surprises me as an American in the UK how hostile the UK is to paracetamol. You buy it in like 300-pill packages in the US, and I've literally never heard of anyone having a single accidental over-dose. I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone intentionally overdosing on it, but I guess I can't rule that out since I'm aware of who 1-2 people personally have taken "a handful of pills". The efficacy window of driv…

It doesn't make much sense to think of efficacy windows for driving, it's not a medical intervention.

Besides US traffic deaths are crazy high by UK standards.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#264

Post by wizzwizz4 »

ricardobeat wrote: post #221
mschuster91 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no evidence of gene expression for autism. The fact that we haven't identified candidate genes for autism and a bunch of other mental health issues doesn't mean these aren't hereditary or have hereditary triggers that make outbreaks easier. > if anything it is epigenetic caused by environmental pollutants and hormone exposure Doubtful. The difference to older times is, we now properly diagnose mental healt…

You don't have to identify the root cause for that though, all it takes is studying the prevalence of a disease across family trees, that would be evidence of genetic expression.

Autism appears to be hereditary, but the eugenicists haven't identified a genetic component (nor have any other researchers, who are admittedly less motivated to find one). We're pretty sure that autism is a developmental condition, but the correlations with other things are… weird. (Off-hand: fœtal androgen and œstrogen levels, some chromosomal disorders, some mitochondrial disorders, a handful of rare single-point mutations, maternal autoantibodies, gut flora, something something oxidative stress (doesn't replicate, but keeps coming up).) Maybe they all tie into a "single cause" somehow, but… well, there's no single cause for eye colour (developmentally a much simpler trait), so the whole idea that autism is a deviation from the baseline, explicably attributable to a single factor, is somewhat of an article of faith.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#265

Post by rainsford »

paulvnickerson wrote: post #225

Here's the relevant study from earlier this year: https://hsph.harvard.edu/news/using-acetaminophen-during-pre... It's a meta-analysis that considered a bunch of individual studies, their effect size, and their quality. It claims that Tylenol use has increased alongside a 20-fold increase in autism rates, suggesting causation, and recommends immediate efforts to reduce Tylenol use during pregnancy. One objection that…

The conclusion section of that very study says "...further research is needed to confirm these associations and determine causality and mechanisms" and "A causal relationship is plausible..." [emphasis added].

In other words there is an association, but the study is not able to prove (or even suggest) causation. For example, it does not exclude the possibility that other factors that actually cause autism and Tylenol use are themselves linked. So Tylenol use could be correlated with autism but not a cause of it. In that case, pregnant women who would otherwise use Tylenol not doing so are not reducing the chance of autism. And as the study points out, failing to treat conditions that warrant Tylenol usage can also have negative pregnancy outcomes.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#266

Post by gtowey »

beefnugs wrote: post #253
kosma wrote: post #164

There is research correlating autism and mothers taking certain medications (painkillers, antidepressants). Since autism is hereditary, there is a significant chance that these mothers are autistic too. Autistic people have a vastly high risk of depression, and often have unusual pain thresholds, requiring more painkillers. I would not be surprised of the correlation was real, but the direction of action was reversed…

[flagged]

With the current political climate, I think we are more likely to find the Health Department promoting cigarettes as a healthy way to relax.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#267

Post by macintux »

bitwize wrote: post #211

I've been talking about this for a little while: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45006936 I'll take RFK being the stopped clock on this over him causing yet more harm to the medical community and to Americans' health.

The problem is that RFK, like Trump, has effectively created a situation where anything they say is immediately discredited by a huge portion of the population.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#268

Post by [deleted] »

albedoa wrote: post #258
jrflowers wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I know that you’re correct, your phrasing was just hilarious. Under the caveats of a competent physician and a completely med-compliant patient, opiates are perfectly safe. Those are enormous caveats though, given the history and prevalence of incompetent physicians and noncompliant patients (at least in the US). Generally if you see someone complaining about opiates being dangerous, they’re likely factoring in op…

I appreciate your sensible and articulate responses here.

[deleted]

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#270

Post by WalterBright »

delfinom wrote: post #224
WalterBright wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine, Eric Engstrom, died of liver failure after taking (too much) Tylenol. Tylenol use over time can sneak up on you in the form of cumulative liver damage. No, I'm not a doctor and this isn't medical advice. Personally, a works-most-of-the-time treatment for headaches is going out for a walk. I don't know why it works, but it does.

Headaches have various causes, and you have to look at where the pain is "originating" from to even try and figure out why. Going out of a walk could be due to a sinus getting irritated and going out for fresh air helps relax it. It can also just be a stress headache and going for a walk relaxes you.

Oh I fully agree that it working depends on the cause of the headache. But when one doesn't know the cause, it's well worth a try.
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