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How Kerala got rich

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Re: How Kerala got rich

#261

Post by gilfoyle »

Cherian wrote: post #92

I was born in the second southernmost district of Kerala, Quilon (now Kollam). I am now a U.S. citizen in the Bay Area. Growing up in Quilon, I attended an Anglo-Indian boy's school called Infant Jesus - in a small strip of land called Thangassery, people predominantly spoke English. I was taught British dialects emphasizing pronunciations that mimicked the world stage. I didn't really understand it until much later…

Catholic churches are quite conservative in their own ways, primarily set up by Christian missionaries with the mandate to convert.

The english language helped, sure, but it's the lack of opportunities in their own state and the higher education levels that created the conditions for the immigration to Middle East. Kerala also had a long history of trade with Arabs.

Yes, there is restriction on beef consumption in India but nobody protests for pork while in the middle east - it's all about which side the bread is buttered.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#262

Post by [deleted] »

_thisdot wrote: post #256
YouAreRONGS wrote: post #219

The main reason is probably because it is a small state with a majority Christian/Muslim population who work in the Middle East. It allows the state to get to a higher lower income level quickly. But there's very little in terms of actual enterprise in the same way you get in Tamil Nadu or other parts of India. As to why the article is on the front page on HN? Probably because the state has a large diaspora in the Mi…

It's a misconception that Kerala has majority Christian/Muslim population. Kerala has ~55% Hindus and ~25% Muslims and ~20% Christians.

[deleted]

Re: How Kerala got rich

#263

Post by ern »

Gud wrote: post #259
blululu wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam is probably the most economically savvy major religion (Mohammed was a merchant after all). Unlike other religions which issue blanket prohibitions on things like charging interest or having wealth Islam is more pragmatic. Hoarding wealth is considered sinful when it means that others are going without but it is not a sin to make money, have money or be rich. The gulf states could all broadly be described as so…

Sorry but they cannot be described as socialist because workers rights are non existent. Just because there is some protection for the native Arabs doesn't mean it can be "broadly described as socialist". There is no protection for the Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Indians, etc, who are doing the work. Protecting the working class is pretty much the point of socialism. This is a ludicrous statement.

They’re welfare states, with three classes of residents. A slave-like underclass, disenfranchised expats, and citizens who get paid off by their royal families with generous benefits. Maybe the closest analogy is Ancient Rome?

Re: How Kerala got rich

#264

Post by facile3232 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #171
pphysch wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keep in mind that a mismanaged government can be a lot more predatory than any private actor. What's the basis for this claim? What is a "mismanaged government" but one that is controlled by narrow private interests? Or is this coming from a "all tax is exploitation" angle?

Is there a government that's not ultimately controlled by narrow private interests? A well-managed government is merely one where inbuilt norms and traditions (including the Western traditions of constitutional human rights and separation of powers, but not only!) manage to limit the extent to which the narrow private interest of government actors can lead to predatory exploitation of the broader public.

> including the Western traditions of constitutional human rights

I never really got why the west is so proud of not establishing basic rights of access to food, shelter, healthcare, and education. I don't quite understand the point of them otherwise.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#265

Post by fakedang »

intended wrote: post #167
fakedang wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bangalore today is a shadow compared to the Garden City it once was. For outsiders not in the know, Bangalore was famous for its beautiful lakes and the lush greenery around them. It was absolutely something else, finding these beautiful water bodies smack in the middle of what is supposed to be a major city. The weather was cool, almost like a warm European summer (which is extremely cool by Indian standards). Then…

Hey, Mumbai folks will fight you for supremacy on bad scenery. Course we concede the actual crown to our dearest friends in Delhi.

I'll be honest, Mumbai is still very scenic, and I say that as someone from Kerala. Marine Drive and the Colaba area really have a very Bombay-days vibe even after all the changes in the area. While Sealink does ruin the sea views a bit, it's still not a grotesque mark on the scenery.

To be honest, my only relatively poor experience in Bombay in terms of scenery was in the Four Seasons hotel in Worli, when I could get a nice view of couples going at it on the rooftops of the chawl nearby, somehow appropriately from my bathroom window.

Delhi does have its own charms too. Assuming you're a strong enough male, it's worth exploring South Delhi on foot solo over autumns, winters and spring, just immersing in the city. Obviously face mask recommended and not recommended for ladies.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#266

Post by fakedang »

YouAreRONGS wrote: post #235
fakedang wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bangalore today is a shadow compared to the Garden City it once was. For outsiders not in the know, Bangalore was famous for its beautiful lakes and the lush greenery around them. It was absolutely something else, finding these beautiful water bodies smack in the middle of what is supposed to be a major city. The weather was cool, almost like a warm European summer (which is extremely cool by Indian standards). Then…

I blame a lot of the cesspoll nature of Bengaluru on over-obsession with living a Silicon Valley lifestlye in the middle of a very dense city. Bengalurians should have been copying East Asian lifestyles where cities which have ancient dense cores rather than the suburban sprawl lifestyles that the US offers. A lot of the architectural and socio-cultural concepts are also much more similar to East Asia than they are t…

Perhaps there will be a return to the roots. The new redesign of Bangalore airport is very much in line with an East Asian vision and I hope that carries over into the rest of the city. That being said, I'll still bemoan the loss of the lakes.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#267

Post by YouAreRONGS »

your_challenger wrote: post #260
YouAreRONGS wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I question why it's on the front page as well even though I'm Tamil. Kerala is by no-means unique in India. It's controversial because the state is communist and majority Christian/Muslim, on top of being one of the thorns for the BJP (albeit a small one at least). It reeks more of left-wing propaganda being promoted by left-wing narratives in the western world that end up supporting corrupt and divisve left-wing pol…

Why is it "controversial" to have a left leaning government and a significant population of Christians or Muslims? Yes, Kerala had early "true" communism (land reforms, nokku kooli) but since then it has just been a left leaning, liberal government. Also answer why you find it controversial for it to have other religions than Hinduism.

It's politically charged to have politically-driven narratives on HN, especially when it has the basis of ethnic politics. This makes it controversial in the first place.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#268

Post by YouAreRONGS »

fakedang wrote: post #266
YouAreRONGS wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blame a lot of the cesspoll nature of Bengaluru on over-obsession with living a Silicon Valley lifestlye in the middle of a very dense city. Bengalurians should have been copying East Asian lifestyles where cities which have ancient dense cores rather than the suburban sprawl lifestyles that the US offers. A lot of the architectural and socio-cultural concepts are also much more similar to East Asia than they are t…

Perhaps there will be a return to the roots. The new redesign of Bangalore airport is very much in line with an East Asian vision and I hope that carries over into the rest of the city. That being said, I'll still bemoan the loss of the lakes.

It surprised me that tech companies opted for Silicon Valley style campuses rather than Chinese stytle skyscrapers. It's not feisable to live a Bay Area lifestyle in a city surrounded by mountains like Bengaluru. You would not have to build over lakes if you built up.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#269

Post by Gud »

ern wrote: post #263
Gud wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but they cannot be described as socialist because workers rights are non existent. Just because there is some protection for the native Arabs doesn't mean it can be "broadly described as socialist". There is no protection for the Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Indians, etc, who are doing the work. Protecting the working class is pretty much the point of socialism. This is a ludicrous statement.

They’re welfare states, with three classes of residents. A slave-like underclass, disenfranchised expats, and citizens who get paid off by their royal families with generous benefits. Maybe the closest analogy is Ancient Rome?

I don't think the underclass is living under slave like conditions though.

Full disclosure, I worked in Dubai for 2 years(as a disenfranchised expat), working closely with guys from above mentioned countries. I install heavy machinery.

It's true some are treated poorly, but most are there genuinely there out of free will, because they make buckets of money to send back home. One Pakistani foreman I worked with had stashed away 250k Dirhams and was going back home to start his own business.

The gulf states can/could be an opportunity for the poor, see Bin Laden family for a famous example.

More than criticizing the gulf states for using these people as cheap labor, the criticism should be aimed at their corrupt governments not giving opportunities to their own population. Ironically they are not even allowed inside Europe and the US.

FWIW my experience in Dubai changed my views on the region to a much more nuanced one.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#270

Post by YouAreRONGS »

_thisdot wrote: post #256
YouAreRONGS wrote: post #219

The main reason is probably because it is a small state with a majority Christian/Muslim population who work in the Middle East. It allows the state to get to a higher lower income level quickly. But there's very little in terms of actual enterprise in the same way you get in Tamil Nadu or other parts of India. As to why the article is on the front page on HN? Probably because the state has a large diaspora in the Mi…

It's a misconception that Kerala has majority Christian/Muslim population. Kerala has ~55% Hindus and ~25% Muslims and ~20% Christians.

Christians were much more powerful than Hindus though. And the links with the Middle East has given the Muslims a lot of leverage as well. It's likely that with current birth rate trends over the past ten years since the census was taken, that the Hindus have been overtaken by the rest to form a minority too; the NFI stated in 2017 that Hindus would be a minority by 2025.
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