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U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

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Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#261
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can reliably price a stock based on any measure of company value then you could be very rich very fast. What you're saying is already true and already is happening. The global financial services industry is a $20T industry. > There is a reason they say don't stock pick just buy an index fund and hold. Yes for the common retail person sure, but someone has to purchase stocks to put them into an index. Those a…

>Yes for the common retail person sure, but someone has to purchase stocks to put them into an index. Those are professionals who evaluate PE ratios, profitability, and financial statements. This is not what an index is. You are describing a fund, but an index fund explicitly does not evaluate PE ratios, profitability, and financial statements, they buy everything in the index according to the market cap. Some propri…

> they buy everything in the index according to the market cap

You're splitting hairs. I guess I should have clarified. What I meant was that at some level the companies are being valued based on PE ratios, etc. So while the index funds may not be analyzing the underlying securities themselves (other than determining their weighted value), someone is, such that their market cap drives them being in the index (SP500 for example). Point still stands from the parent comment.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#262
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you acquire this point of view? You sound very certain, but I think you've got it completely backwards: You say bitcoin cannot be a currency because it is highly volatile, but I'd argue that it's just as true that Bitcoin has high volatility because it isn't in widespread use as a currency. I suppose they can both be true: it's a network bootstrapping problem. This is the future bitcoin long-term buyers are…

My issue isnt it's volatility, which is dramatic and a barrier to adoption. But it's inherently deflationary -- we know how deflationary currency works, and it's a nightmare. The only people able to spend on luxuries are those who have so much wealth that holding it has lower marginal utility than the luxuries they want. Everyone else spends only when they absolutely have to on necessities, as everything else is irra…

I recently sent a low-fee, nearly instantaneous payment over the lightning network with exactly zero trusted intermediaries. LN may or may not be ready for wider-scale adoption, but it was incredibly cool. It gave me that same feeling of power and possibilities as when I first learned to program a computer. I'm not sure if I can convince you but there is actually some there there.

If, as I predict, volatility goes down as the network grows and bitcoin becomes used for more things, so does average return. In other words, the "deflation" rate reaches some small but steady level. The days of number go up will be over, bitcoin would be something boring that goes up only slowly over decades. Like the foreign exchange of a virtual country, its market price vs other currencies would be determined more by balance of trade than by currency speculation.

Of course, that future is far from certain. Buying bitcoin now is like buying an option that pays out if that future comes to pass. The price of an option is very volatile, but it is never zero until it expires. Bitcoin might wax or wane in popularity, but it will never expire.

This is all that the words "speculative asset" entail: they are risks that work out in some possible futures and don't in others. So it doesn't bother me that some people bought bitcoin and $10 and are now sitting on a nice stack. That bitcoin could have easily gone to 0.01 today. They took that risk. Why shouldn't they reap that reward? Without those early market participants in bitcoin, wouldn't be even more highly concentrated? My advice to such whales would be to spend their bitcoin on business investments that help spread the coins and bootstrap the network. Bitcoin-related businesses that pay employees in bitcoin. There are still bold people out there who want to live in an alternate future and try to make it real.

Of course, I don't think everyone should get into speculation... It's got a pretty high attrition rate even among the professionals. But you know, oddly enough, it's when inflation rates are higher that the more people are forced to be speculators just to stay in place.

Being on the cutting edge means that most of the time, what you are doing just doesn't work.

I've been listening to old timers tell stories about working at MOS technology back in the 70s. MOS was rather vertically integrated, with chip design and fabrication feeding all the way to consumer products. So chip designers dealt with buggy manufacturing processes, board engineers got buggy new chips hot off the wafer, and software guys got buggy dev boards. A lot of time was spent trying to go back and fix bugs at the lower layers, sometimes all the way down to manufacturing defects. It might sound crazy today, but for a time they could do things that very few other companies could.

"It's slow", "it's buggy", "it's inefficient"... all of these are ways of saying "I can't, I won't". Expressions of fatigue. They don't lead anywhere.

"I'll make it fast," "I'll make it work," "I'll make it efficient"... all are expressions of will. This is the attitude that the builds the future.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#263
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin was some neat tech. But, in case you haven’t noticed it’s been taken over by finance bros. Now, it’s just a scam to prey on the poor and ignorant.

Wait until you hear about fiat currencies.

New things aren't always better.

Yes, existing financial systems are terrible. They are rampant with abuse, manipulation, and people converting human behavior into abstract objects that they can gamble on so that they can extract wealth without providing value and they do this to the point that they introduce systemic risk to our entire society.

Cryptocurrency is this times 1000. It is the financialization of everything. Instead of mortgages being packaged up into bonds and then derivatives of those bonds, everything gets packaged up into financial instruments and then derivatives of those instruments. Something like ETH makes it very easy to write programs that move tokens that are worth dollars based on inputs taken from the ledger itself. That inevitably encourages a sort of hyper-financial system.

That's worse.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#264
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes for the common retail person sure, but someone has to purchase stocks to put them into an index. Those are professionals who evaluate PE ratios, profitability, and financial statements. This is not what an index is. You are describing a fund, but an index fund explicitly does not evaluate PE ratios, profitability, and financial statements, they buy everything in the index according to the market cap. Some propri…

> they buy everything in the index according to the market cap You're splitting hairs. I guess I should have clarified. What I meant was that at some level the companies are being valued based on PE ratios, etc. So while the index funds may not be analyzing the underlying securities themselves (other than determining their weighted value), someone is, such that their market cap drives them being in the index (SP500 f…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#265
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did use the word “significant” in my original question. The following reply to this question makes it sound pretty dire: https://www.quora.com/What-if-everyone-stop-mining-Bitcoin

During the crash in 2017 mining decreased drastically, I want to say by like 70%? There were slow blocks for a while then difficulty adjusted.

In the case of ETH, difficulty adjusts every block. ~15s.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can pay your taxes, fines, and court ordered debts with fiat currency. It's arguably THE MOST stable thing in a functioning society above pure barter.

Try saving for retirement. At 2% inflation (the target rate), after 20 years you'd lose 1 - (.98 ^ 20) = 33.2% of the purchasing power of your savings. But right now, inflation is 7.5% year-over-year. And that's the official measure, which uses "owners' equivalent rent" based on a survey, instead of actual rent prices. In the past 20 years (Jan 2002 - Jan 2022), the CPI went from 177.7 to 281.933, or a 58.6% increase…

Most people don't save for retirement by storing stacks of cash.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#267
post #229
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way that I am interpreting this is that if I were to invest in one of these (i.e. Maker) then the returns that I would see are there purely because other people are investing in it. That's the opposite of what I'm saying. The returns are from other people using the platform, not from investors in it. For Maker, using the platform means borrowing. For Uniswap, the returns are from a small % fee on trades. It's e…

But what is the platform used for? Converting energy into human comfort, or just another layer of financial engineering?

> But what is the platform used for? Converting energy into human comfort, or just another layer of financial engineering?

This is essentially the "problem" at heart of all crypto "currencies". There is no real world use case that imparts human value, apart from its utility as a speculative vehicle to grow wealth.

Every new DeFi application is a new layer to lock in current adapters who would've otherwise already cashed out. Crypto as a currency is a concept dead in the water because of the perverse incentives of finding every corner of arbitrage between non distinguishable (and frankly worthless) alt tokens/coins.

The entire world of crypto is nothing else but an experiment of how much one could financialize a fully non-regulated, intangible, and imaginary "good" based on nothing but greed.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#268
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue isnt it's volatility, which is dramatic and a barrier to adoption. But it's inherently deflationary -- we know how deflationary currency works, and it's a nightmare. The only people able to spend on luxuries are those who have so much wealth that holding it has lower marginal utility than the luxuries they want. Everyone else spends only when they absolutely have to on necessities, as everything else is irra…

I recently sent a low-fee, nearly instantaneous payment over the lightning network with exactly zero trusted intermediaries. LN may or may not be ready for wider-scale adoption, but it was incredibly cool. It gave me that same feeling of power and possibilities as when I first learned to program a computer. I'm not sure if I can convince you but there is actually some there there. If, as I predict, volatility goes do…

Sure, this is the defence. Some basic questions that would be asked in any (ordinary) policy proposal conversation:

* What are the major problems with existing currency systems?

* Which of these specific problems does crypto solve?

* What problems does crypto create? Are these less serious than the existing ones?

* How well/reliably does crypto solve them?

* Who are the stakeholders that will determine crypto adoption?

* Which of these stakeholders would switch to crypto, and why?

* Why wouldn't they?

* If crypto sees no widespread adoption, is there any market value to it as an asset? What would this value be? Why?

Let me remind you: crypto is backed by a highly centralised companies largely controlled by early adopters who hold the vast amount of the crypto value within the system; their relative control can only increase overtime as the asset is deflationary. The entire economy is determined by the immutable blockchain, unless its forked to preserve the interests of those with massive holdings. The immutability of the blockchain makes fraud irreversible, unless the chain is forked -- so fraud is only reversible against high stakeholders. The chain is incredibly operationally expensive to run, centralising service control to a few companies, and incredibly slow. The whole economy is public, so once your identitity is known, you're entire economic life is visibile to everyone -- making blackmail, fraud, and "ruthless and abtiary credit checks" easy.

We know what a society based on a deflationary stake captured-early is like: its called feudalism.

Crypto is an anti-democractic economically illiterate project to create a feudal society in which power is proportional to holdings; and redress requires convincing the powerful to "fork the economy".

If it had any chance of success at all, it would be necessary immediately to organize a massive political project to ensure it was stopped. The reality is its just a group of fanatics engaged in a get-rich-quick scheme thinking that in the future where they are rich, they'll have the power (by design of the system)!

Thankfully it's genuinely silly and ineffective, and the only thing crypto has ever done is be sold to the next fool along. No one really needs to worry, within the decade crypto will have collapsed. I'd say 5 years, but of course, bernie madeoff ran his greater-fool scheme for 30.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#269
post #52

I’m blown away by how anti-crypto this discussion is. I hadn’t realized how negative the prevailing sentiment is on Hacker News. One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? If you truly believe that cryptocurrency is the basis for a superior economic system, isn’t it rational and wise to put some…

> One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? Most other assets represent ownership of... something. A company, a commodity, property. Cryptocurrency is closest to either a fiat currency without the government backing that typically tries to stabilize those. Or to more exotic and abstract financia…

>P/E ratios to consider because the only thing Crypto "produces" is Crypto transactions

The 2008 crash showed that most of those signals are highly manipulated. Bond ratings can be colluded on. Just a few short years later most of the dust settled on that, it happened again with the LIBOR rate. Traditional markets can be systematically manipulated when the fiduciaries don't act in a very fiduciary manner. (It keeps happening!)

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#270
post #92
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is crypto a systemic risk? From my recollection of the 2008/09 financial crisis, systemic risks were those in which entities were deeply intertwined with one another on a massive scale, such that there failure would potentially bring down the entire system of finance. We're talking: retail banking (payments, savings, lending), commercial banking (idk?), public debt markets (bigco and gov funding), but most especi…

If the Tether people are to be believed, there is $80bn of "cash" that's held "somewhere" (neither investors nor investigators are clear where). That may turn out to evaporate. Allegedly it has come from "institutional investors" (which ones?) On the other hand, it's still not up to the size of Lehman ($600bn!). It's heading there.

The difference (systemic vs non-systemic) is not just about magnitude, but also in who Lehman's counterparties were and the effects when those counterparties (those who were exposed to Lehman) could not get their expected capital (and the chain reaction of events that sets off throughout the capital markets and then the real economy). I remember reading some stat that claimed Lehman had derivative contracts with total notional value in the 10s of trillions.
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