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Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

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Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#261

Post by ksec »

rubyist5eva wrote: post #74

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

I dont agree with getting rid of "widget", but I do agree vertical space are very limited. Your example of 1080P will be on a 16:9 Screen or iMac. MacBook uses 16:10, but even that, vertical space are still at premium. Once you have Dock at the bottom, and all web design has another layer of navigation at the top, you are quickly looking at 480 out of 1600 gone [1]. That is 30% of my vertical screen space. Leaving effectively 2560 x 1120 for content at Aspect Ratio of ~21:9 ultra wide.

I would have used Full Screen Option if I could have Tab Bar showing instead of Address bar + Tab Bar. And Safari for some reason has strange GPU / CPU usage problem with full screen usage which hasn't been addressed for years.

May be instead of software design, hardware should have adopted to it. Microsoft Surface Laptop has a 3:2 Aspect Ratio. On the same MacBook Pro 13.3", that would have been an additional 120 pixel.

Another point worth mentioning, the Big Sur redesign actually have the Safari ( and macOS )Toolbar "thicker" as in taking more vertical space.

[1] I tend to hide the Dock Bar, without the Dock it is only 340 of vertical space.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#262

Post by 0x0 »

jaredcwhite wrote: post #96

I don't have macOS 15 beta yet, but I'm running the Safari Technology Preview now on Big Sur which has most (all?) of the new UI changes. I love pretty much everything about it. It looks gorgeous. Tab Groups are incredible. The "address bar is in the tab" concept does take some getting used to and that's likely the area they'll tweak the most over the next few months. But overall, huge step forward in my book. Can't…

The new UI changes were introduced in tech preview 126, but that one is only available for macOS 12. The download page at https://developer.apple.com/safari/download/ says "macOS 11 - coming soon".

I have tech preview 125 from earlier and no software updates are available in system preferences.

So how do you have the new 126 UI changes on Big Sur already?

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#263

Post by alanbernstein »

nlitened wrote: post #75
alanbernstein wrote: post #35

Why do browser updates keep fucking with the basic interface design? None of these changes are ever necessary. If designers need to justify their jobs, fine. They should design the interface layout with modular components that can be entirely customized by the user. IMO no user should ever be forced to use designs that are the product of meaningless fads in the design world.

From what I understand, the question is similar to “why do developers keep inventing new frameworks and new programming languages?” Maybe developers are justifying their jobs. Maybe younger developers are excited about ditching the old crufty frameworks and languages, and exploring something new. Maybe every 10 years they reinvent the old wheels, and older developers are grumpy that the change was not needed in the f…

Creating new browsers doesn't bother me at all. I think the appropriate analogy is something closer to changing the spelling of a language's keywords arbitrarily. Change for the sake of change, which is easy enough to adjust to, but introduces a transition period that costs time, for no good reason.

The backward compatibility effects aren't quite as bad in the browser context... except when the plugin API is affected.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#264

Post by [deleted] »

oivey wrote: post #201
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fairly common because it's commonly true; people don't like the changes for good reasons. Actual innovations in design are fine, but too often changes to user interfaces are arbitrary or are a response to the latest fad or some bright idea marketing or management cooked up. There is a strong argument for user interface stability. People don't just learn user interfaces, they seep into people's unconscious and mu…

I think the role of the aesthetic of a product is a bit under appreciated. If Safari was exactly as functional but still looked like Netscape navigator, it would negatively impact people’s opinion of the browser. It’s just like the idea that you first eat with your eyes. For example, eggs with yellow yolks and orange yolks taste the same in blinded tests, but when people can see the eggs they usually go for the orang…

[deleted]

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#265

Post by ephimetheus »

flohofwoe wrote: post #126
defaultname wrote: post #11

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

UI changes are only good if they improve usability. By far most UI changes these days are only done for the sake of looking different and "fresh", UI design has become purely fashion driven. Where's the scientific research and white papers going along with the Safari UI changes which clearly justify point by point why every single change makes sense, all backed by user studies? All I usually see is "emotional bullshi…

Mozilla was doing exactly this with their Firefox redesign and everyone on HN hated it because stuff was different.

I think the problem is everyone on here hates it when stuff they use changes and that’s all.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#266

Post by mulmen »

elliekelly wrote: post #101
Someone wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“but do not work in reality with real data and real users, those that open 35 tabs” That is close to stating that those that open fewer than 35 tabs aren’t real users and, further between the lines, that those people can be ignored. However I think, but don’t have data to confirm it, that they should be catered for and that “those that open 35 tabs” are a vocal minority.

> However I think, but don’t have data to confirm it, that they should be catered for and that “those that open 35 tabs” are a vocal minority. This is the first time I’ve ever even considered the possibility that someone is capable of using a browser with only one or a few tabs open at a time. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure they exist, but having a million tabs open is so ingrained in how I consume information on the i…

I typically have 5-10 browser windows open with 4-10 tabs per window across 5+ spaces.

I’m terrified of the next redesign of spaces.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#268

Post by zamadatix »

ksec wrote: post #261
rubyist5eva wrote: post #74

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

I dont agree with getting rid of "widget", but I do agree vertical space are very limited. Your example of 1080P will be on a 16:9 Screen or iMac. MacBook uses 16:10, but even that, vertical space are still at premium. Once you have Dock at the bottom, and all web design has another layer of navigation at the top, you are quickly looking at 480 out of 1600 gone [1]. That is 30% of my vertical screen space. Leaving ef…

More than aspect ratio or physical pixels the real metric is "inches of screen space". You can put 8k in a 13" laptop but if you want to read the window title and url bar and dock you're still eating the same amount of physical real estate as if it were a 1080p laptop. You can change the aspect ratio sure but outside of desktop setups the space constraint is already in depth so all you're doing is chopping off width that wasn't a problem while keeping the same depth profile. I.e. very few are buying a 13" laptop because 15" is too wide rather than too deep.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#269

Post by montroser »

Bud wrote: post #250
rubyist5eva wrote: post #74

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

Things like the tab bar and the reload button are not mere "widgets"; they are the core UI elements. They are the single most important part of the app. This is simply a bad call. I'm all for saving vertical space whenever possible. But this is a bad call.

The single most important part of the app is the content.

I would be interested to see a version where the tabs and url bar roll up to one line if you have the space (few tabs, large monitor), but wrap to two if you don't (lots of tabs, small monitor).

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#270

Post by lawkwok »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #238
rpastuszak wrote: post #59

Am I the only person who likes this change? Normally, I’d have 4-5 tabs that I keep switching between fairly often and then 20-xx most of the time useless, de facto bookmarks. I use a keyboard shortcut with fuzzy find to pick the right one. Reclaiming the address bar space to cram more tabs on the screen is a marginal gain, at least in my case.

I'll have to give it more time but so far I like the change. Typically I have dozens of tabs open, so at first blush it might seem that the redesign wouldn't work for me at all, and that would be true if I didn't adjust my tab habits. What I've done is swept those dozens of tabs into a handful of purpose-oriented tab groups. I don't really need all of those tabs open at all times, all I really needed is somewhere to…

I’ve started to shift to this workflow too. There is content that I use once a week yet the tabs don’t always stay the same so the tab group paradigm is much better than committing everything to bookmarks and having to keep them updated.
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