Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository • Hacker News Board

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#261

Post by JCharante » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

wang_li wrote: post #155

AsyncAwait wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OP is asking whether such countries, including the US, are indeed democratic, or just called that like Congo is called democratic, (not to the same degree obviously, but the same principle).

Can a country be called democratic if me and six friends are not allowed to draw a random border around a house and then vote to murder the residents with only our votes counting because only those inside the arbitrary border we drew are allowed to vote?

Wouldn't the analogy be better if you lived in a dorm building, and your friends voted to draw the border around the dorm?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#262

Post by gerardvivancos » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

portillo wrote: post #251

gerardvivancos wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which judge? Can you name the judge? It's the Guardia Civil (police) requesting the takedown.

It was ordered by the "Juzgado Central de Instrucción número 6" of the "Audiencia Nacional" which is presided by Manuel Maria Garcia-Castellon. The police cannot request taking-down a website without a judicial order.

Ok, so he's the same one who ordered detentions on 9 Catalan independence supporters under the accusations that they were preparing terrorist actions, even though there is no evidence on that?

It seems like he sees terrorism everywhere when he looks at Catalans.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#263

Post by devtul » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

TBP responses come to mind instantly.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#264

Post by Arkhaine_kupo » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

tbatchelli wrote: post #226

Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he means no historically justifiable reasons. Most countries demanding self determination due so in religious, political or historical basis. Catalan identitarianism is very very recent. Culturally they are as Spanish as any other region (spain is relatively federal more so than a single monolithic culture like France). Some of the main reasons for claimed independence are "Spain steals from us". Now this is…

I think you might not know much about Spanish history. The Catalan movement has existed for at least over a century. We had revolts quashed, we had our language forbidden, we had forced economic depression, presidents executed, all since early 19th century. When do we get your approval, at 150 years? 200?

the catalan movement from 100 years ago and now is not the same. The revolutions of the late 19th century where far left, considering the absolute barbaric infighting between anarchists, communists and republicans in BCN which heavily hindered the efforts against rising fascism. The Catalan movement now is not comunist and anarchist, is heavily favoured by Catalan elites. The Puyol family being a clear example. The same rancid spanish right wing bullshit with some catalan paint cover. Puigdemont is Rajoy with a senyera

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#265

Post by FullMetalBitch » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #237

gjulianm wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes we can. There are independentists in parliament. The president of Catalonia is an independentist. Pro-independence demonstrations happen and there are no arrests just by going there (except in riots, but that's because the police force is way too uncontrolled, not because of a general freedom of expression issue). This takedown was to an app that was used to organize a blockage of a major airport. I do not agree…

The treatment of Carles Puigdemont and others is hardly consistent with free expression.

Puigdemoont is free and has been free to say whatever he wants but embezzlment is a crime.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#266

Post by gerardvivancos » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

reallydontask wrote: post #207

mschuster91 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's similar to Brexit. No matter what the government does, 50% of people will be utterly pissed off. But the biggest problem is that, unlike the UK where Scotland was allowed to hold a proper referendum in 2014, the Spanish government is not only not allowing holding a real referendum that would settle the issue for the next few years, but also prosecuting those responsible for the 2017 referendum with extremely har…

Spain, unlike the UK, has a written constitution, in which the indivisibility of the state is stated. This means that the first step for any region to legally have any chance of leaving Spain is to change the constitution, which needs bigger than simple majorities (3/5 or 2/3 depending on the procedure), so it's unlikely that this will happen any time soon. The people that organised the referendum knew this and still…

The referendum can happen anyway and the application of the result can be done by modifying the Constitution.

Let's be honest, the only reason not to allow the referendum is that the Spanish Gvnt. does not want it to happen.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#267

Post by mschuster91 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

mihemihe wrote: post #209

mschuster91 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's similar to Brexit. No matter what the government does, 50% of people will be utterly pissed off. But the biggest problem is that, unlike the UK where Scotland was allowed to hold a proper referendum in 2014, the Spanish government is not only not allowing holding a real referendum that would settle the issue for the next few years, but also prosecuting those responsible for the 2017 referendum with extremely har…

The issue is the ramifications which come with a referendum. Let's imagine secession wins with a 52%, and everybody decide to divide Spain. This means 48% of the people are going to be taken their Spanish passports and citizenship off, and they become just Catalans. This opens a can of worms in terms of stability of the region, which may very easily end up in another civil war, like the one that happened few decades…

> Let's imagine secession wins with a 52%, and everybody decide to divide Spain. This means 48% of the people are going to be taken their Spanish passports and citizenship off, and they become just Catalans.

What about dual citizenship? I am sure there is a way to peacefully resolve such a split.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#268

Post by mirimir » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

It's clear that Microsoft Spain must comply with Spanish government orders. That's just reality.

It's also clear that using GitHub for Tsunami Democràtic was a poor choice. Because GitHub is obviously vulnerable to such takedowns.

Self hosting on a more or less "bulletproof" server would have made far more sense. If I were doing it, I'd probably use a Tor onion server, with clearnet gateways via disposable VPS, using domain names that were difficult to revoke.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#269

Post by gerardvivancos » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

mihemihe wrote: post #209

mschuster91 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's similar to Brexit. No matter what the government does, 50% of people will be utterly pissed off. But the biggest problem is that, unlike the UK where Scotland was allowed to hold a proper referendum in 2014, the Spanish government is not only not allowing holding a real referendum that would settle the issue for the next few years, but also prosecuting those responsible for the 2017 referendum with extremely har…

The issue is the ramifications which come with a referendum. Let's imagine secession wins with a 52%, and everybody decide to divide Spain. This means 48% of the people are going to be taken their Spanish passports and citizenship off, and they become just Catalans. This opens a can of worms in terms of stability of the region, which may very easily end up in another civil war, like the one that happened few decades…

Let's imagine the referendum can't happen. Then an unknown % of people have to hold the passport they don't want to hold. How is that better?

Besides, who says that anyone is going to lose their citizenship? Wouldn't that be something to negotiate over? Can't you hold the Spanish citizenship AND another one if you are from LATAM? It's just a matter of political willingness.

But I guess it is better to introduce artificial barriers for this to happen if you happen to be in the situation that you want.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#270

Post by not2personal » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #253

rndgermandude wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. Why do they need the approval of people living elsewhere?

It's a tightly integrated part of the economical and political system, the people elsewhere would also be severely affected. Why is it obvious that they get to break the system unilaterally?

>Why is it obvious that they get to break the system unilaterally?

Thomas Jefferson I believe explained this best:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Without the consent of the governed you do not have a legitimate government, what you have is despotism, no matter if you held a vote or not.