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Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

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Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#261

Post by dragonwriter »

EGreg wrote: post #257

This is ridiculous. I never understood why it's THAT needed for a keyfob to open a car by merely being close to it. Whatever happened to key fobs you had to PRESS to open a car?

> I never understood why it's THAT needed for a keyfob to open a car by merely being close to it.

It's convenience factor that makes a big difference for people that tend to get to their car with full hands.

> Whatever happened to key fobs you had to PRESS to open a car?

They still exist, handsfree entry is an upgrade (or an included feature but only on higher trim levels) on many models.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#262

Post by heeen2 »

gambiting wrote: post #19
snarfy wrote: post #6

> Key fobs are constantly broadcasting a signal that communicates with a specific vehicle, he said, and when it comes into a close enough range, the vehicle will open and start. Why is it transmitting without the user pressing a button? Is that a feature? As you walk up to the car it automatically starts like magic? I'm not familiar with these newer cars.

>>Why is it transmitting without the user pressing a button? Is that a feature? It's not transmitting anything, it works pretty much the same way NFC works. Both the key and the car have their own public/private key pairs(which were obviously set by the manufacturer) and when you touch the handle the car transmits an unlock request to the key, encrypted with the car key's public key(this is going to get confusing lol…

As you described it, it is easily broken with a replay attack.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#263

Post by abecedarius »

burfog wrote: post #227
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes, let's put the burden back on the user after we promised them something easier. We should just go back to traditional keys if this is the case.

Please yes. Traditional keys fit on my keyring, can survive the clothes washer, don't unlock doors by accident, can open a car with a dead battery, don't have their own battery issues, and can be brought into restricted work environments where radio transmitters are banned. I want key holes in all doors. I want to insert a key to start the car.

OTOH keys can be cloned from a photo nowadays, so I gather.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#264

Post by frankus »

tomerico wrote: post #255

I wonder how difficult it is to add some clock syncing and time-of-flight measurements to ensure a certain distance. If the speed of light is to fast, maybe using sound could work.

Apple claims that they use time-of-flight for their "Unlock with Apple Watch" feature on macOS, so it seems like something that a car maker/supplier could pull off, especially if they're willing to throw dedicated hardware at the problem.

That said, the fob is much more battery-constrained than a watch that you charge on a daily basis.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#265

Post by RandallBrown »

secabeen wrote: post #167
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #31

I'm confused. Are there cars where the fob can automatically start the car, without any button presses, just from proximity? How did they not realize that was a bad idea?

Yes, the Tesla Model S and X keyfobs do not require any button presses.

Not even without pressing a button on the car to start it?

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#266

Post by jjeaff »

jamescostian wrote: post #245
r00fus wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this not sound exactly like what I had back in the 90s where my physical key would need to be inserted to start the vehicle and to unlock I'd press the keyfob to activate the unlocking. I imagine an smartphone with touch sensor + car remote app would be even safer than what we have now.

The difference is that you can start up your engine (read: have AC on so that your car is the right temperature when you get to it) and also unlock the doors for others from far away If that functionality was encapsulated on a smart phone, that would be fine too.

My 2007 vehicle does this just fine. And any signal from the fob require a press of the button. These key fobs use rolling codes as well. So you would need to capture a button press while the remote is too far away from the car to receive it. Then replay it to the vehicle. Of course you still need the key to unlock the steering wheel and of you touch the break without inserting the key, the ignition cuts off.

I'm not sure why we are going backwards in the security department here. Seems like a lot to give up just to not have to stick the key in or press the unlock button.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#267

Post by jjeaff »

asdff wrote: post #206
stronglikedan wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then my mom would have to dump out her purse every time she wanted to unlock her car.

safety pin near the top + carabiner = instant easy access keys

Lots of purses have clips near the top for this very purpose too.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#268

Post by jjeaff »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #182
stronglikedan wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then my mom would have to dump out her purse every time she wanted to unlock her car.

How does she unlock her front door?

We use the garage or a key code lock.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#269

Post by yholio »

Scoundreller wrote: post #246
HorizonXP wrote: post #72

This happened to a family member of mine, here in Toronto. Lost their gorgeous M5. Their kid normally wakes up in the middle of the night, except this time, he freaked right out like he was scared. They were wondering what was going on with him, when one of the parents heard the M5 turn on (it's pretty distinct). "That's my car!" His wife said, "Naw, you're crazy, no way." Sure enough, enough, key fob attack and thef…

> If I were the insurance companies, I'd be putting pressure on the car companies Oh please, this is Ontario. The auto insurance companies main innovations have been: 1) getting caps on benefits 2) creating new driving violations to jack up your premiums (eg: non-criminally blowing over 0.05, but less than 0.08) Neither resulted in lower premiums for anyone else.

Sounds like a great opportunity to increase the theft premiums for people owning fobbed cars.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#270

Post by jjeaff »

jamescostian wrote: post #249
nkrisc wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I was making a joke, but I was also semi-serious. I personally wouldn't mind that the car unlocks based on the fob's proximity, but requires insertion of the key for ignition. I currently drive a 2009 car with the usual key fob and my biggest issue with it is not having to insert it to start the car, but unlocking the doors while my hands are full. Once I'm seated in the driver's seat I'm not carrying anything a…

> unlocks based on the fob's proximity Unfortunately, that would be vulnerable to theives unlocking your car and taking everything in it. For me, the biggest convenience of fobs is the ability to start the car and have AC on so that the car isn't burning/freezing when I get to it

And this is probably a more common scenario than stealing the car.
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