Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles • Hacker News Board

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#221

Post by dsfyu404ed » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #217

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because we all have Faraday cages in our homes Yes, most people who own cars new enough to have this vulnerability own microwave ovens.

So you have to pull your keys out of your pocket and stick them in your microwave every time you enter your house just to have the convenience of not needing to take them out of your pocket when you approach the car.

I know it's not a practical workaround. I'm just pointing out that most people do technically have a Faraday cage in their homes.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#222

Post by pixl97 » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

pofilat wrote: post #89

ams6110 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What strange is, I can see unlocking the car and even starting it with this attack -- but do the cars not continually (or at least every minute or two) revalidate the presence of the key? Once they got very far away from the house, the car should shut off. Or so I would think.

So if you accidentally drop your keys while entering, or your passenger departs with your key, the car should lock itself 2 minutes later while you are driving?

Or drop to 5MPH and flash the lights and horn.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#223

Post by bas » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:36 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #139

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just use physical contacts on a real key.

Not having to drag keys out of your pockets is a feature.

You meant a solution in search of a problem.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#224

Post by kazinator » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:37 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #198

cft wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simple button on the fob (rather than in the car) that you must press to open the doors and to start the engine would mitigate the attack. No need for coupling

> A simple button on the fob (rather than in the car) that you must press to open the doors and to start the engine would mitigate the attack. Yes, reverting from passive-supported to active-only remote entry/start would eliminate the attack by eliminating the feature on which it is based. OTOH, the handsfree nature of passive remote entry is a major selling point.

Selling point for some. For others, either a "do not buy" point or "crammed down your throat" point.

There is a general trend that car electronics is increasingly acquiring behavioral features that annoy me, that cannot be disabled. This is all across the board; if you don't like it, you have fewer and fewer options: pretty soon, you will have to drive a used old beater if you don't like what new cars are doing.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#225

Post by asdff » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:39 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #139

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just use physical contacts on a real key.

Not having to drag keys out of your pockets is a feature.

Yeah, for the thief, maybe. This is a classic example of tech attempting to eliminate a mild inconvenience that no one really complained about before, and clumsily engineering a 'solution' that causes a dozen other novel and catastrophic problems in the process.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#226

Post by siffland » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #213

siffland wrote: post #184

There is a lot of great technical discussions here of ways to possibly solve the issue. The real problem points back to the lackluster security the auto industry is used to. Only if some sort of accountability or software security testing requirements are enforced this will get fixed. They have to have a mandatory recall if your Audi accelerates quickly by itself (that was in the early 80's i think), but no recall fo…

IIRC for the Audi 5000s it was because the brake and throttle were too close and your foot or floormat frequently got stuck on top of the throttle. People would shift out of park not realizing this and go flying, not any kind of software or security issue.

You are correct it was mechanical, I was just drawing a connection that mandatory recalls exist for issues the auto industry is use to (I.E. mechanical), but nothing exists to track and force updates to software issues (like a CVE database, Perhaps something does exist and I have not heard of it) and have not in the past been the best at software assurance.

It is kind of an apples to oranges comparison, but nonetheless it gets the point across.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#227

Post by burfog » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #180

cronix wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simple on/off button on the fob would work, and probably extend the battery life by a few years.

Ah, yes, let's put the burden back on the user after we promised them something easier. We should just go back to traditional keys if this is the case.

Please yes. Traditional keys fit on my keyring, can survive the clothes washer, don't unlock doors by accident, can open a car with a dead battery, don't have their own battery issues, and can be brought into restricted work environments where radio transmitters are banned.

I want key holes in all doors. I want to insert a key to start the car.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#228

Post by sdinsn » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

ulkram wrote: post #199

nkrisc wrote: post #105

I imagine improvements to the key fob could be made that would require a mechanical coupling with the car in order to start it. That would circumvent this attack.

you mean a key?

(that's the joke)

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#229

Post by burfog » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:44 PM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #181

HorizonXP wrote: post #72

This happened to a family member of mine, here in Toronto. Lost their gorgeous M5. Their kid normally wakes up in the middle of the night, except this time, he freaked right out like he was scared. They were wondering what was going on with him, when one of the parents heard the M5 turn on (it's pretty distinct). "That's my car!" His wife said, "Naw, you're crazy, no way." Sure enough, enough, key fob attack and thef…

> If I were the insurance companies, I'd be putting pressure on the car companies And also give car owners an incentive to keep their keys safer, given how many vehicles out there are vulnerable to this. Just fixing this for new cars is only half the solution. I remember back in the 80s my parents got a discount on their insurance for installing a third brake light in the back window of their old Camaro. If my insura…

Use a cookie tin. Holiday ones are often decorated nicely.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#230

Post by stronglikedan » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:44 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #182

stronglikedan wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then my mom would have to dump out her purse every time she wanted to unlock her car.

How does she unlock her front door?

She doesn't have her keys on her fob. Heck, last time I took her to get her oil changed, the key fob still had the little plastic removable key tag from the dealer she bought it from.