This is just sad. Linus was a driving force. His comments were often acerbic but always fair.
> His comments were often acerbic but always fair. No. https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495
Wow.
Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
261–270 of 1001 posts
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yea. I fail to see how something like CoC can ensure a truly harmless community, when it is the covert power (the unspoken vibes, ambiance, etc.) that ultimately dictates the level of malice in a community.
A code of conduct alone doesn't, but it's a start. A statement like this one from the project lead(s) helps as well, to set the overall direction. This isn't the end of the process for the kernel community; it's a major step in the right direction.
It remains to be seen how this all plays out.
Personally I remain skeptical, because in one community I saw first-hand how the people at the top used something like CoC to justify their malicious acts, in the name of being welcoming.
It is the same old morality game that does not ensure any genuine harmony.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is why a governing body codifies their interpretation of the matter into rules that everyone who wants to be part of the community has to abide by.
It's a nice theory, but the reality is that those rules tend to get enforced differently for different people, so it fails to entirely stamp out problem behavior. Shit runs downhill. Whomever is at the top is the DNA for how things actually work. To me, the good news is Torvalds is taking some time to figure himself out. That is likely to make a major difference. Few people bother to really deal with the man in the m…
Of course, but it's a start and a symbolic gesture.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#264As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…
Linking it to "PC" or "women" I think sort of undermines it on a larger level. To take part in opensource, especially a big project like Linux you have to be willing to put yourself out there a little bit. You have to put in some work, and then put something out there to possibly (probably?) be crapped on by people you respect. They might love it and merge it, they might hate it and tell you why, they might come back…
I don't know much about Linus's personal background prior to his announcing his project as a student. His communication style always struck me as surprisingly easy to understand and relate to. It reminds me of what used to be a common subculture in tech fields in California, namely the ex-military enlisted men's culture. I have wondered if he somehow had similar early exposure.
It's the combination of swearing like a sailor, sarcasm, thick skin, and being prone to hyperbole when talking about any kind of trained skill or procedure. As a child, I learned from my dad (and eventually figured out what he really meant), "There is the right way, the wrong way, and the Navy way" to everything. This culture is indoctrinated when young men go through boot camp, but it also spreads itself when concentrated enough other environments. In boot camp, the yelling, the swearing, the insults, and rigid expectations are used to shock, reset, and motivate. Initiates are bootstrapped into a command hierarchy and also taught trust, duty, and shared responsibility. A lot of this rubs off on the successful graduates.
When people with this sort of background mingle, it is easy to fall into this sort of brusque communication. Language may be harsh, colorful, and full of crude imagery, but usually isn't intended to be cruel or hurtful. Those with fluency will take it as quite the opposite... people are signaling trust and fraternal interest. Such insults and jokes are exchanged to strengthen bonds. Ironically, while someone communicating in this mode can easily hurt the feelings of someone not conditioned to understand it, in turn they can feel hurt themselves as they were putting their feelings out there (albeit in a coded form) and having them slapped down and rejected. To a person steeped in this culture, it is frustrating dealing with the subtlety and opacity of "polite" and "diplomatic" society whose practices often seem perverse, passive-aggressive, and insincere.
I feel that the tech scene used to be more strongly influenced by these ex-military participants. Some of the older hacker ethos also seemed to mix this with other hippie and subversive attitudes which could somehow tolerate and complement each other. This is disappearing. I would not link the change to political correctness nor women, but to a general dilution of those old norms. More and more participants are coming in as tech becomes mainstream. There is a new wave of youngsters further removed from military experience, in spite of US activities abroad. There are also far more immigrants from many other cultures throughout the world.
The only thing less effective than groups of people speaking different languages at each other is when they mistakenly thing they are speaking the same language...
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
> ”I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day“ This is a false dichotomy. There’s no need to be an asshole to not be a pushover.
It's not even a dichotomy. The poster is just saying which one out of two negative situations s/he prefers.
It’s a straw man meant to excuse bad behavior as the only way to provide strong direction. Pushovers are not the under discussion here: Torvalds’ behavior is.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
hehe I think his description of the left and your description of the right are the more correct ones. Both other descriptions more accurately describe the political center.
Hmm, that's a good point. I'm not sure I agree, but something to think about. I think it might be more accurate to say the negative descriptions accurately describe the bad-faith actors, and the positive ones describe the good-faith actors.
Unfortunately the "bad-faith actors" have all the media attention, and at least on the left, also a lot political power (i.e. they can get people fired/banned from Unis) (at least the media and academia seem completely left-dominated; maybe the opposite when it comes to the current US administration, although I don't see the far-right making any big progress, except maybe "the wall" and "Muslim ban"). Basically this is the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#267I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…
I agree. I liked his rants, I found them entertaining, and I wish I was the target of one! (I would probably need to work on my coding skills first.) I wish people would grow thicker skins and get more emotionally mature, and be able to tolerate harsh words without taking them personally.
ignoring your emotions and the emotions of others and seeing all of life as an exercise of pure rationalism is not emotional maturity, it's emotional cowardice.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can easily find just as, and more, ridiculous examples on the left. Offended by jokes, tshirts, suggestions that unborn children's lives have value, praise of Israel, using biologically and factually correct terms for people, suggestions that people shouldn't be discriminated against, pointing out scientific/genetic facts, ...
Who decides what examples are ridiculous and what examples aren't?
Exactly.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#269Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…
The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones. Don't hold back, but be very supportive and positive when more than two people present. I try to explain this to be people I work with, but I don't think everyone appreciates it.
Horrible people, in my opinion, are those that do the opposite.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not even a dichotomy. The poster is just saying which one out of two negative situations s/he prefers.
It’s a straw man meant to excuse bad behavior as the only way to provide strong direction. Pushovers are not the under discussion here: Torvalds’ behavior is.
Or perhaps an acknowledgement that people are imperfect and the world is imperfect and, if you want to accomplish things, x all-too-common defect is preferable to y all-too-common defect.