Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#261

Post by banku_brougham » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 2:14 AM UTC

leggomylibro wrote: post #76

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. Well, iOS11 needs to ship on its annual schedule, non-negotiable. And the SVP will really complain if I ask for more money this quarter. So, cheap it is. If a bridge falls down, it's really obvious and people die. If bill…

You have it. Terse and to the point, i’m just providing more recognition here than my upvote.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#262

Post by slededit » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 2:14 AM UTC

dizzystar wrote: post #162

tmh79 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that if facebook decides that I am black, I will never be able to see facebook ads targeted towards white people, I will never know they exist, and even if I want to see them, I will be unable to, thus I am excluded from them. BUT if I am black, I am able to buy a magazine targeted towards white people, peruse the classified ads, and apply to any jobs that interest me. The other issue is that political…

I've worked with racists that didn't want me around, I can assure you that you are better off without them. There's nothing heroic about forcing pigs out of their slop. Job ads drop a lot of blatant hints about race, age, gender, religion, and so on. Instead of me wasting my time applying to a job I can't get, I'd rather not see them. Of course, if you are the crusading type, then please go all the way and get the la…

Not everyone has the benefit of multiple potential jobs. Anti discrimination laws exist for those people.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#263

Post by GreyestBeard » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 2:15 AM UTC

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

Recent grads = Shit eaters. Typically 20-something, from a mediocre 2nd or 3rd tier univ, first job, invariably 2nd gen umherican, reporting to 1st gen immig manager who couldn't care less how much shit he feeds these swines. Endless hours, lotsa BSs, moving target requirements,... Often I have queried the eaters: "Why do you take that shit?" The look on their face says: "Isn't this how it's meant to be?" No. Oh fuck, no!! Of course, the 20+ has smaller balls than a squirrel. It'll be years before he can grow some and stand up to the manager who's chewing his meagre hangings.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#264

Post by user5994461 » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 2:17 AM UTC

nhebb wrote: post #201

user5994461 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'd like to start a business in 3 or 4 years, and I'm seriously considering going out of my way to target people like him. It'll be my competitive advantage. He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that?

As someone in their 50's, that argument makes no sense to me. If I were unable to find a job, you somehow think I'd hold out for premium wages?

A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. As long as they bought their home when it was affordable, they are fine. Some have sizable assets that the younger folks can't dream to achieve in their lifetime.

They won't accept work for less than premium wages, don't need to.

That being said, I admit that there is also another part of the population who is struggling and desperate for work at any price.

Last but not least there is the question of what is premium wage. In London for instance, a lot of folks over 30 moved to contracting where they can charge a good daily rate, without the hassle of whiteboard interview, overtime or politics. You'll see many companies (see the HN who is hiring) allegedly struggling to recruit at their great wages, but the truth is that employees have moved out to greener pastures for twice the money.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#265

Post by banku_brougham » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 2:19 AM UTC

tmh79 wrote: post #58

avar wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you mainly advertised for employees in certain newspapers you'd get people of a given political leaning. If you advertised on the radio at 6 in the morning you probably wouldn't get anyone under 35. It's not obvious to me why employers should be able to use the implicit filtering traditional media provides, but not the explicit filtering new advertising platforms provide.

The problem is that if facebook decides that I am black, I will never be able to see facebook ads targeted towards white people, I will never know they exist, and even if I want to see them, I will be unable to, thus I am excluded from them. BUT if I am black, I am able to buy a magazine targeted towards white people, peruse the classified ads, and apply to any jobs that interest me. The other issue is that political…

This 1000x. I’m pretty frustrated by many of the posts here today, someone please post a github repo of “Understand the law in X minutes.”

Specifically, it is so common to see evaluations of a reasonable hypothetical counter-example that holds together logically, with an implicit or explicit judgement of the outcome meant to discourage the reader from being too hasty in regarding this new outrage as such.

There is no discussion of the reason such laws exist, or any appreciation of the gravity of breaking these laws, indeed little appreciation for what law is and how it is different from the most up-voted answer on stackoverflow. At a minimum, we should all have respect for the risk of legal jeopardy to ourselves in our professional work, as it is often not the executive or the corporate body that bears the punishment.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#266

Post by e40 » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 2:21 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #220

MilnerRoute wrote: post #191

I want to believe these companies don't know it's illegal to discriminate based on age. Because the alternative is that they're intentionally discriminating -- and thinking they won't get caught, because the ads are only appearing on Facebook. But any government agency that's investigating this can obviously just to ask Facebook for the company's ad buys, and there's an irrefutable paper trail. (It can't be that hard…

Genuine question: is it explicitly illegal to discriminate in your outreach for job applications? Surely similar behavior happens all the time without as much outcry, like recruiting at college career fairs.

If you only look for employees in places with young people, that is likely illegal. It would take a pattern of this over time. If someone found out (e.g., an inside ratted you out), and a lawyer took it on contingency (because the company doing it has deep pockets), then it could be serious trouble.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#267

Post by TheCoelacanth » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 2:22 AM UTC

coding123 wrote: post #217

I guess I have two takes on this: 1) Does this mean my local strip club will now have to hire 90 year olds? 2) Ignoring that joke for now - if pro-publica released this information we now have information that harm has been caused. And actually couldn't this be an indication that possibly billions of dollars of damage has been done... what's next?

1. No because appearance is "a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of the particular business" for strippers, models, actors, etc.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#268

Post by drewcon » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 2:27 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #220

MilnerRoute wrote: post #191

I want to believe these companies don't know it's illegal to discriminate based on age. Because the alternative is that they're intentionally discriminating -- and thinking they won't get caught, because the ads are only appearing on Facebook. But any government agency that's investigating this can obviously just to ask Facebook for the company's ad buys, and there's an irrefutable paper trail. (It can't be that hard…

Genuine question: is it explicitly illegal to discriminate in your outreach for job applications? Surely similar behavior happens all the time without as much outcry, like recruiting at college career fairs.

This was my thought exactly. I'd like to know the answer to that.

I think there's a difference b.w "we won't hire people over X yo for this job" and "90% of our applicants for this role are younger so we're just trying to spend our recruiting dollar in the most efficient way possible to reach those folks".

Alternatively, they could simultaneously being running ads targeting employees of an older age with different messaging and content to get higher conversion.

I'm interested to know at what point effective marketing crosses the line into discriminatory practice.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#269

Post by flukus » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 2:28 AM UTC

hackits wrote: post #224

leggomylibro wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To a business they see software/engineers as a expense. Anecdotally, this is one of the first things I try to gauge at a prospective employer. "Are their development teams seen as cost centers, or profit centers?" If the company works with technology a lot and doesn't see technology as being particularly important to its bottom line, that's usually a bad sign. Also, discussions with C-levels tend to be pretty one-di…

You're 100% right but also 100% wrong. Like I said before you're viewing it from the perspective of a developer but not from the perspective of a Business person. Instead of saying `Users cannot sing up if everything is broken` you need to see it from a Business perspective, and communicate it to them in the language they understand. For example, `From our quarterly earnings report we need to have 10,0000 new clients…

So we just have to do their job as well as our job?

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#270

Post by TheCoelacanth » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 2:28 AM UTC

jklinger410 wrote: post #126

mulmen wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, and job seekers over 40 are a protected class, so this is illegal discrimination.

I'm curious if we have the same vigor over Strip Clubs? They have been operating outside of this law the entire time. Are we supposed to respect this law now, even though everyone in this thread knows its unenforced, unenforceable, and is being broken constantly? I'm supposed to be outraged by the natural evolution of online ads, though. And at Facebook.

Strip clubs are discriminating based on "a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of the particular business". That is explicitly allowed by ADEA. Most businesses don't have the same excuse.