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Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

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Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#261

Post by vkou »

Melk wrote: post #175
PacketPaul wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The expansion of NATO deep into former Warsaw Pact countries.

>The western powers have been doing most of the invading lately. That's what you're replying to. Several former Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO. The West didn't invade them.

If Canada were to allow China to start building military bases and anti-ICBM defense sites on the Canada/US border, there'd be regime change on Parliament Hill within the week.

Every empire needs aligned, friendly, or at least, neutral buffer states on their borders - and will violently defend incursions into their buffer zones. Observe the shitshow over Cuba - sixty years of sanctions, terrorism, assassination attempts, an invasion, and a nuclear crisis later, the United States still hasn't forgiven it.

The United States was ready to bathe the entire world in nuclear fire - because a neighbouring country entered into a military alliance with the USSR. Let that sink in... And then consider what expanding NATO into Eastern Europe, US support of Georgia, regime change in Syria looks like from the Russian point of view.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#262

Post by alkonaut »

emodendroket wrote: post #228
alkonaut wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there's been some question about some of the newer NATO members for some time though Perhaps. And surely any country would ponder whether it would be willing to send thousands of young people to their deaths for any cause, regardless of what agreements were signed. But the point is these things aren't supposed to be discussed in public by the parties that need to demonstrate resolve.

Unless you think the Russian government is filled with incompetent idiots I don't think they're incapable of understanding American resistance to the idea of war over Latvia regardless of what the President says.

> Unless you think the Russian government is filled with incompetent idiots I don't think they're incapable of understanding American resistance to the idea of war over Latvia regardless of what the President says.

If one thinks that "they understand what we think anyway" then the whole idea of foreign poilicy, military posture, diplomacy is moot - it's just various mind readers knowing what everyone thinks :)

Obviously the russians have a good idea what America think and vice versa. Deterrence is having that tiny doubt in the back of their minds that "maybe, just maybe, Article V is really invoked if we do X".

The only thing that is dangerous is removing that doubt - which really can only be done via a clumsy statement from one party bound by it. So long as it's guessing about the status of Article V in a Baltic crisis it's fine. All a US administration has to do is keep everyone guessing.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#263

Post by shuntress »

mkaziz wrote: post #172
justaman wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US had problems "keeping those wars 'won'" because the US had to attempt to minimize civilian deaths. If there ever is an event where this isnt the case, you can bet it would be wrapped up in a few weeks.

Yeesh, minimize civilian deaths? "The Iraq Body Count project (IBC) figure of Documented civilian deaths from violence is 155,923 – 174,355 as of March 2016. This includes reported civilian deaths due to Coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence and increased criminal violence.[19] The IBC site states: "it should be noted that many deaths will probably go unreported or unrecorded by officials and me…

'minimize' not 'eliminate'

I think it's a safe bet that if the strategy in Iraq had been 'Use airborne ordinance to turn the country in to glass' the war would have been 'won' much sooner with far higher civilian casualties.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#264

Post by DamnYuppie »

vondur wrote: post #250
zzleeper wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait wait.. Russia plainly invaded two of its neighbors, and annexes part of them. Is that just "behaving badly" in your book?

Well, we pushed NATO onto the borders of Russia. I can't imagine the US would be too happy with Russian military bases on our borders.

100% correct! Does the Cuban Missile Crisis ring any bells??

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#265

Post by mason240 »

bad_user wrote: post #19
fowlerpower wrote: post #2

This is somewhat overblown, there was a lot of talk about this as it became clear Trump was about to be elected. Yes Trump is stirring the pot a bit maybe to play Russia against China. Maybe it's to get Europe to spend a little more on NATO so the US doesn't fund the vast majority of that alliance and he can cut some spending there. Whatever the mind set is, not much has changed. The US and all of its allies are stil…

Judging by how Trump is behaving, there are two more possibilities: (1) no strategy is involved at all, populists being known to do that, either because of incompetence or because stirring the pot gives the illusion of progress (it's after all why he was voted), or (2) his strategy is aligned with his businesses, which is not that far fetched, given how he hasn't banned immigrants from Muslim countries in which he ha…

#2 is one the more ridiculous talking points floating around, for a number of different reasons that I'm sure you are already aware of.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#266

Post by mason240 »

bad_user wrote: post #88
jerf wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be operating under the belief that the disintegration of the EU started three weeks ago or something? It's been an ongoing saga for years. I mean, Brexit predates Trump, and Brexit itself is the result of years of pressures. I can see why you'd be so confused by the "strategy" if you think Trump is causing it, but he's reacting to it. And my assessment of the situation is the other way around; there's not…

The Brexit campaign was fueled by lies. The real issue is a trend of anti-intellectualism and xenophobia, which I fear we've seen before, triggered by the great depression and a precursor to WWII. It's as if, whenever a financial crisis happens, people go dumb.

>The Brexit campaign was fueled by lies.

The Remain campaign certainly was, your comment being evidence.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#267

Post by nsomaru »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #203
Gustomaximus wrote: post #77

From the article: "It needs to move toward more military integration, which means streamlining procurement. European armies use too many different weapons systems: seventeen main battle tank families compared with just one for the U.S.; 20 types of fighter planes compared with just six; and 13 kinds of air-to-air missiles compared with three." While I dont doubt there are efficiencies to be had, I feel they fail to r…

I think that is a report that is sponsored by Thyssen Krupp or by Kraus Maffei (or by both of them) - they want to push their products because the largest arms shop will dominate an integrated commands procurement process. Why is this report bullshit? Because Europe and Russia are interdependent: Europe stops buying Russian gas - Gazprom and the Russian state by extension are toast; Europe stops buying - everything t…

To your OT question: that was stopped shortly after it begun, mostly because it's quite difficult to actually classify what's 'politics' and what's not.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#268

Post by mason240 »

wobbleblob wrote: post #61

After the round of elections in France and Netherlands this spring, and Germany this summer, Europe may or may not start disintegrating, depending on the outcome. Ms. le Pen may not win this time, but she will one day. A correctly timed scandal or major terrorist attack in the second round may sink her opponent. Moscow, London and Washington are hard at work with her, to make this happen. When she, or someone like he…

Asserting that the US, UK, and Le Pen herself are planning terrorist attacks in France is a serious allegation.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#269

Post by rleigh »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #201
runeks wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU coming to an end is not the disintegration of Europe. Personally, I would feel no less united with my fellow Europeans if we were to lose a common regulatory body looking over us.

I would dislike having to get visas to visit other parts of Europe. And inevitably, if the EU falls apart, at least some parts will get very nasty towards others.

You could visit other parts of Europe without a visa before the EU, and before the EEC. I see little reason why it would change.

Right to live in another country might require some paperwork filing, but visiting is rather different.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#270

Post by mcguire »

bad_user wrote: post #134
jerf wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's moving the goalposts. Nothing about what you said makes it the result of Trump's administration. Also, might I just point out the irony of accusing people of being "anti-intellectual" in reaction to the financial crisis that is precisely the one the intellectuals promised us could never possibly happen under their guidance, and were mocking people for even considering it possible right up to the day it happene…

It's not moving the goalposts, I was just noticing the global trend that links Brexit, Trump and possibly other upcoming events like Le Pen. > the intellectuals promised us could never possibly happen under their guidance, and were mocking people for even considering it possible right up to the day it happened Well, source please. Not that I don't believe you, but don't remember the deriding or the predictions you're…

Check out Debunking Economics. It's kind of a horrible book, but the economic arguments seem sound and are very interesting.
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