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Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

bloomberg.com

201–210 of 395 posts

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#201
post #121

After the round of elections in France and Netherlands this spring, and Germany this summer, Europe may or may not start disintegrating, depending on the outcome. Ms. le Pen may not win this time, but she will one day. A correctly timed scandal or major terrorist attack in the second round may sink her opponent. Moscow, London and Washington are hard at work with her, to make this happen. When she, or someone like he…

The EU coming to an end is not the disintegration of Europe. Personally, I would feel no less united with my fellow Europeans if we were to lose a common regulatory body looking over us.

I would dislike having to get visas to visit other parts of Europe. And inevitably, if the EU falls apart, at least some parts will get very nasty towards others.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#202
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the 1990s, NATO reconnaissance aircraft didn't stop flying over Russia, although Gorbachev and Yeltsin were quite friendly to the US. Post-2000 Putin's Russia is a result of the West's decline to treat it with respect. The arms race was started again and additionally fueled by the expansion of NATO in Eastern Europe.

Well, "treating Russia with respect" to Russia means "let us do with our neighbouring countries as we please regardless of their wishes". So of course _that_ had to be declined.

And how is that different from the US intervening in "non-neighbouring" countries like Iraq or Afghanistan, or the UK going to war with the "neighbouring" Falkland Islands?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#203

From the article: "It needs to move toward more military integration, which means streamlining procurement. European armies use too many different weapons systems: seventeen main battle tank families compared with just one for the U.S.; 20 types of fighter planes compared with just six; and 13 kinds of air-to-air missiles compared with three." While I dont doubt there are efficiencies to be had, I feel they fail to r…

I think that is a report that is sponsored by Thyssen Krupp or by Kraus Maffei (or by both of them) - they want to push their products because the largest arms shop will dominate an integrated commands procurement process.

Why is this report bullshit? Because Europe and Russia are interdependent: Europe stops buying Russian gas - Gazprom and the Russian state by extension are toast; Europe stops buying - everything that is made in Europe will be much more expensive.

With this information everything else is trivial.

Now a non related question: is the no politics period for HN now officially over?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget about US proxy invasions and the global drone program... and so on, and so on... I am not defending the Russians, but at least they have the audacity to be upfront about it.

You are defending the Russians to a slight extent by bringing up the misdeeds of the US. Two wrongs do not make a right. American here.

With all due respect you're confusing diplomacy with morality. The question isn't if Socrates would find the behavior pleasingly moral, but if pragmatically at least one country has been invading random 3rd world countries on the other side of the planet for decades without the world collapsing into WW3 then what is the likely outcome of a much more minor ... international misbehavior. Therefore a country "invading" direct neighbors who historically have always been part of the empire is extremely unlikely in a pragmatic analysis to cause geopolitical instability or WW3 or whatever warhark ridiculousness.

Don't get me wrong, it can still be morally and ethically "wrong" in an abstract sense. But most people are concerned with the fearmongering "Oh no, Russian tanks will be rolling down the boulevard in Paris next year unless we ..." is all completely ridiculous. Russia already fought and lost a COIN "Vietnam" against a majority Islamic nation of Afghanistan, once demographic replacement takes hold Russia isn't going to want a piece of France or Germany even if handed to them on a plate, oh no last thing they want is the suburbs of Paris in revolt as usual.

The Russian Bear has been content to be contained in its den, as long as its not poked, for centuries. The odds of the Russians regime changing Mexico and fighting a failing counter insurgency in Mexico on our border for decades is approximately zero, like space aliens landing on the white house lawn is a more realistic concern. There are world wide geopolitical problems, none of which involve the Russians.

As a land empire on the other side of the planet, with people more or less like us, following a religion more or less like ours, and a economic system vaguely similar enough, a space alien would assume the Russians should be our closest ally... and if it were not for unfortunate temporary historical anomalies they almost certainly would be. In an unperturbed system (LOL as if international diplomacy has ever been that) they would be great allies.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#205

Because, to put it mildly, Europe has always been able to rely on the US bailing it out when it mishandled some internal or external crisis. Now it's worried it may not be able to take that for granted any more, and may have to take responsibility for its own actions. Frankly, that's terrifying for Europe. Trump has forcibly removed our training wheels. That said, NATO's not going anywhere. Theresa May's first action…

Managing to pack that much condescension for Europe in a sentence is a wonderful feat.

Why do you need to be a self-hating European like that? Do you think if you cast a good enough light on the US and shit on your own enough, people from the States will somehow recognize you as one of their own?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are defending the Russians to a slight extent by bringing up the misdeeds of the US. Two wrongs do not make a right. American here.

I don't see sanctions against US. So this is very hypocritical of wetern nations.

Not sure if it's still going on, but Russia banned food imports from the US, EU, and friends last year.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#207
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The expansion of NATO deep into former Warsaw Pact countries.

>The western powers have been doing most of the invading lately. That's what you're replying to. Several former Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO. The West didn't invade them.

More or less analogous to when the Germans went into Austria in '38.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#208
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A political party that dragged the US into two wars with minor countries with insignificant military resources, both of which could be totally dominated with an air war. And the US still had terrible trouble trying to keeping those wars "won". Not exactly the same sort of conflicts and anyone who thinks they are comparable is a menace.

The US had problems "keeping those wars 'won'" because the US had to attempt to minimize civilian deaths. If there ever is an event where this isnt the case, you can bet it would be wrapped up in a few weeks.

Yeah, remember Vietnam war? Was over in two weeks. Remember Soviet Afghan war? That one was over even quicker!

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#209
post #63
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This may be true but the actions of the Trump administration have many allies questioning how reliable the US is. As compared to the actions of the previous administrations, like bombing in eastern Europe, invading several countries, and royally fucking up Middle East etc, while constantly pushing Russia in the corner in cold war like rhetoric (for doing 1/10 of what they did, and in its actual bordering countries…

I'm not sure how this relates to US allies questioning the reliability of the US? Our allies (as a country not necessarily it's population) are usually involved in the same conflict and support the same worldview towards Russia. It's been widely reported that allies are increasingly military spending and reassessing defense strategies after comments/actions by Trump.

>Our allies (as a country not necessarily it's population) are usually involved in the same conflict and support the same worldview towards Russia.

That's because they have been in bed with US interests (as countries, not necessarily as populations) since the Cold War.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like the US bailed out Europe during the "external" migrant crisis, caused by inadequate US foreign policy in the Middle East?

The migrant crisis is often attributed to the Syrian Civil War; how was the Syrian Civil War "caused by inadequate US foreign policy in the Middle East"?

The refugee crisis is not just Syrian, it's also very much Afghan and Iraqi. I think the main mistake has been to consistently prioritize opposing Russia over fighting Islamism and a failure of working more eloquently towards a peaceful solution for the Palestinians.

A number of socialist leaning, authoritarian but secular regimes, all cold war allies of Russia, were removed with the help of the US and the UK (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya), leaving behind chaos and civil war. Assad was the last of the bunch and he was very nearly toppled with US help before the Russians saved his ass.

I have no sympathies for these regimes and dictators, but not realizing even after multiple failures that they were not the worst that could possibly happen in those societies was a terrible mistake.

Continental Europe is bearing the brunt and the fascist right in the US and the UK are pouring scorn over the EU for failing to sort this mess out, even exploiting it to support their claim that anything other than bigoted nationalism of the Trump and Brexit variety is bound to fail. "Told you so!"

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