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All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

theatlantic.com

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Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#261

Post by WalterBright »

mtbcoder wrote: post #134
WalterBright wrote: post #107

As a counterpoint, I'd like to point out that it has never been easier to start your own business and instantly reach a worldwide marketplace. It has never been less expensive to make things to sell. It has never been more practical to work from your home for a company anywhere in the world.

This isn't a counter-point to the themes in the article at all. While starting a business from a legal and paperwork standpoint is quite easy, maintaining a business is still incredibly difficult and is not even remotely fathomable for the vast majority of white collar, working individuals and families, let alone even blue collar folks. Most businesses still fail, regardless of how easy it is to start one. Furthermor…

> incredibly difficult and is not even remotely fathomable

Running a business can be as easy as mowing peoples' lawns, cooking meals for the elderly, trolling garage sales for things you can resell on ebay, fixing washing machines, etc. I know a guy who bought a trunk full of garage door springs, paid for a yellow page ad, and charges $200 a pop to replace peoples' broken door springs. I could go on for pages.

Banking on the next President to fix anything is a bit naïve. There have been quite a few elected on the promise to fix everything :-)

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#262

Post by kamaal »

maxmax wrote: post #17
meric wrote: post #10

What is society's ideal for the average white working class? What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? Is it getting to live in a very expensive nursing home when they retire? Is it equality where both husband and wife are responsible exactly 50% in finances, chores and taking care of the kids? Or have the time & money to spend a lot more time with the kids; Will welfare help…

>What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? You need to think much more basic than that: Success is having a savings account, a roof over your head in a safe stable location so the kids can stay in the same school, reliable transportation, and a job that provides enough income for all of the above.

Cut down on vacations, that video game console, that iPhone every year. Cut down on drinking, cigarettes. In fact cut away almost anything you don't 'need'(A.K.A living frugally) AND then Invest what you saved.

Give it a few years.

You are almost there...

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#263

Post by jimbokun »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #215
pc86 wrote: post #199

Am I the only one that finds it odd after reading an article about someone making $11/hr in factory losing their job, the top-voted comment (and a good number of the replies) is one lamenting their $150k salary?

It's not odd. It's the sick state of the world. A lot of high-earning software people have low-wage workers in their immediate family . Which makes it suck doubly. I'm in software. My brother went into medicine. I don't talk about my job at home anymore, because both of us know what shitty perspectives he has in front of him for the next decade or so. I do what I can to support him (and the rest of my family), to mak…

Wait, what?

Medicine is one of the few fields besides software that seems to be doing very, very well, judging by how much of the U.S. GDP gets plowed into this sector every year.

So how is going into medicine a poor economic choice? I seem to be missing some information about the topic.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#264

Post by BryanBigs »

jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

Having been both 'poor' and 'rich', here's some advice from experience: don't give your sister anything for her immediate needs not asked for. If she asks, that's different. When someone is telling you to take money "because you need it",etc., it's hard to not feel like you are being judged as a screwup. Instead as a way to help, set up accounts for her children. Start putting money in a college fund (like a 529). Even in the strongest relationships people get weird about unsolicited money for the here and now, but helping to tackle a future problem won't have the same "superiority" effect. It doesn't feel like charity because it's not a immediate need, but more like a vote of confidence in your nephew/nieces - hard to explain why but at least that's been my experience. You also don't have to tell her about it right away. There won't be any question that you are doing it to boost your own ego rather than totally out of the kindness of your heart if you wait a couple years to let her know you've been saving for their future. It'll probably have the same caring impact on her as the $50 gift she gave to you affected you. Just my unsolicited advice :)

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#265

Post by theoh »

VLM wrote: post #239
jahewson wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note that the average local more or less intentionally can't afford the time or money to visit the tourist traps. If you are not rich and want to visit the museums and galleries of Chicago, or attend a Bears game at the stadium, or a music concert, you can't live in Chicago because then you'd be too poor, you have to live elsewhere and visit. Ah, but that's an American perspective. In Britain museums and art galler…

Maybe it varies. Last time I was in Dublin, it cost 10e to see the book of kells, the Guiness tour was 20e, etc. Almost nothing was free in Dublin. Admittedly the national art gallery was free although there was a shakedown for "donations". Yes I know Dublin isn't a suburb of London or whatever, but culturally its not that far away.

In London most major museums are free (with a "shakedown") and have been for about 15 or 20 years. Special exhibitions tend to be charged for.

Ireland's economy and cultural sector is distinct from the UK's and much smaller. The Guinness Brewery and Book of Kells are really exceptional cases which cater to wealthy international tourists. They have little to do with local cultural life.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#266

Post by TeMPOraL »

jimbokun wrote: post #263
TeMPOraL wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not odd. It's the sick state of the world. A lot of high-earning software people have low-wage workers in their immediate family . Which makes it suck doubly. I'm in software. My brother went into medicine. I don't talk about my job at home anymore, because both of us know what shitty perspectives he has in front of him for the next decade or so. I do what I can to support him (and the rest of my family), to mak…

Wait, what? Medicine is one of the few fields besides software that seems to be doing very, very well, judging by how much of the U.S. GDP gets plowed into this sector every year. So how is going into medicine a poor economic choice? I seem to be missing some information about the topic.

We're not from the US. I don't know for sure how medicine in Poland compares to the US as a sector, but from what I understood from various articles over the years, the situation is similar - that is, you can get wealthy, after spending 10+ years in education and lucking into right specialty if you land a good job. But it's not the fate of an average medical student.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#267

Post by goldbrick »

mason240 wrote: post #180
alphonsegaston wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from a similar background and this is unfortunately untrue. The average white household, for example, has something like 12 times the wealth as the average black household, a near historic high. What this means is that despite an appearance of greater equality in some circumstances, minority populations are still in a much more tenuous position. A white household is more likely to survey an inevitable crisis like…

You simply can't in good faith compare the averages of the two groups because the range is different. You are treating a range of people from destitute trailer park residents to Bill Gates as a homogeneous group.

Oh brother. Jay-Z and Floyd Mayweather are black, why don't you complain about them being counted?

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#268

Post by dang »

pc86 wrote: post #199

Am I the only one that finds it odd after reading an article about someone making $11/hr in factory losing their job, the top-voted comment (and a good number of the replies) is one lamenting their $150k salary?

That's a seriously uncharitable reading. The comment's first sentence ("This level of inequality makes me sad.") makes clear what it's lamenting.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10929274 and marked it off-topic.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#269

Post by ild »

VLM wrote: post #163
bane wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. economy is geographically spread out and enormous . However, due to various historic reasons, the population is mostly focused at the coasts, and for other historic reasons, the north-west and north-eastern coastal areas are the wealthiest and densest. More people and more money means more demand and higher prices. In the rest of the country, which is fairly sparse, you can find high standards of living, min…

>extras usually in the form of various culture and activities Note that the average local more or less intentionally can't afford the time or money to visit the tourist traps. If you are not rich and want to visit the museums and galleries of Chicago, or attend a Bears game at the stadium, or a music concert, you can't live in Chicago because then you'd be too poor, you have to live elsewhere and visit. What dense, e…

Chicagoland is kinda affordable though, not cheap, but compared to the other major metros is cheaper.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#270

Post by jimbokun »

smt88 wrote: post #24
FussyZeus wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I personally disagree that college is the solution. Some people lack the financial stability required to excel in what is essentially a long, expensive vacation learning things that won't directly impact their earnings. Which is why like I said, it needs to be greatly reduced or preferably free.

Let me clarify that excellence in college is expensive, even if tuition is waived, at least the way it's currently structured. It's very, very hard to get good grades while working enough hours to support yourself, especially if you have no skills (and even affluent college students rarely have marketable skills).

"Let me clarify that excellence in college is expensive, even if tuition is waived, at least the way it's currently structured."

Not really.

"Tuition will be $51,196 for entering undergraduates and for others who arrived in fall 2015, 2014 and 2013, and $50,690 for those who entered in fall 2012, the email stated.

Room and board is set at $7,780 for a standard double room and $5,490 for a standard first-year meal plan, Mr. Murphy’s note stated."

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/education/2016/01/14/CMU-wi...

So $13,270 for living expenses, at the presumably inflated prices CMU is charging.

Over 4 years, comes to $202,760 for tuition, vs. $53,080 for living expenses.

Point being, with tuition hyper-inflation, costs to support yourself while studying are relatively much, much less expensive. The student-loan debt crisis would rapidly become a non-issue if tuition was free.

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