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Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

quantum5.ca

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Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#251

Post by Brian_K_White »

DANmode wrote: post #121
twentyfiveoh1 wrote: post #38

this is disappointing. I need a new machine soon but I am not interested in Framework if they are going to play the usual games. Is thinkpad really it? I wasn't wildly excited about that one either.

Exciting tools are often dangerous.

This problem was not the natural result of "exiting". There is no reason FW couldn't supply a recovery method. That's not "hey that's life on the bleeding edge!" For that matter, the whole product isn't bleeding edge since years ago anyway.

Someone else noticed that there is actually a (unpopulated) header for flashing, which avoids the janky pogo pin thing even unpopulated. Why didn't fw point him at it when explicitly asked? And even if they had, where is the firmware image to use with it? They have it, so there is nothing about the "exiting" nature of the product that stops them from saying something more helpful than "throw the motherboard away".

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#252

Post by mrheosuper »

massysett wrote: post #249
EastSmith wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In comparison to MacBooks ... I can buy 3rd party: RAM, SSD, WI-FI,random Expansion cards from the marketplace. I can open and clean and change thermal paste, etc. I've heard the display can be bought from alibaba, etc. I can't even open my Mac.

The expansion cards always seemed a gimmick to me: it's just a USB-C port, loaded down with the extra plastic necessary to claim it's an expansion port. I guess some folks find it more convenient than a dongle, but when I'm using a laptop for portability it's rare I want anything other than USB-C. (When the laptop is sitting at home or in the office on a desk, just plug in a Thunderbolt dock and get all the ports I c…

The tech is not news, but the execution is also matter.

Like Airpod after all is just a bluetooth earphone, but it is way more successful than traditional one.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#253

Post by colingauvin »

I pre-ordered the very first Framework 13. I was so excited that I loaned it to Level1Techs to make a video of it, and at one point early on it also failed - everyone I communicated with had their name printed on that motherboard, all the way up to the CEO.

I was hugely disappointed when the CMOS battery completely died and the only solutions were: "Don't leave it unplugged or put in a new battery every n months". (Btw the battery holder was a very fragile piece of plastic).

I also pre-ordered the Framework 16 willing to give them the benefit of the doubt - growing company, first product, etc.

In general I like Framework, but this is unacceptable. Get your act together.

My standard for repairable is Schiit Audio. I've had 3-4 things from them (out of like 12 I own) die in various ways, some their faults, some mine. In every instance, I've sent it back to them, and received the same unit back a few weeks later with a new component of whatever failed. Sometimes at my cost, sometimes at theirs. And they do everything in the US too - I'm shipping it to Texas and they are employing someone in Texas to solder on new parts.

Get your act together Framework. This is against the spirit of your mission. No one cares about warranty periods. Buy a new board should be an absolute last resort.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#254

Post by mrheosuper »

okanat wrote: post #229
anthonj wrote: post #12

I really don't understand how in 2025 a competent company can't implement a trival A/B flash update. Do they depend on some obscure contractor for the firmware and have no power here?

Probably they depend on some "obscure" contactor which is one of the ODMs here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_laptop_brands_and_manu... . Intel / AMD and BIOS vendors simply do not expose their designs to everyone. So you have to go through an ODM to have an Intel chip-based motherboard design. The silicon industry is completely rotten at this point. Framework could simply be too small to get access to secret…

This is not completely true, there is open source implementation of UEFI Spec(EDK 2), Microsoft also has Project MU for uefi.

If you are willing to pay, you can design from scratch everything.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#255

Post by Vegemeister »

quantum5 wrote: post #37
drdexebtjl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you overclocked too far, you could remove the CMOS battery or hold the CLR_CMOS button that these high-end boards probably had. Two BIOS chips was supposed to protect you from bad BIOS updates or a bad BIOS mod, just like the scenario from TFA.

Original author here, and I agree. When overclocking, the most important feature is probably resetting the CMOS with one easy to reach button. I was testing ECC previously in https://qt.ax/ecc and was trying to overclock the RAM to induce faults to confirm ECC was fixing them. Since I was using a cheaper board, I had to use keys to short the CLR_CMOS header and that got old really quick... I didn't ultimately succeed…

If you need to do that again, maybe try turning the tREFI DRAM timing to the moon? That controls the refresh interval, which is very temperature sensitive. You could configure a marginally stable setting, let it boot, start running `memtester`, and then apply hair dryer directly to DRAM.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#256

Post by mrheosuper »

mananaysiempre wrote: post #30
Gormo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's always been the case. Phoenix and AMI have been the dominant BIOS providers for over 30 years. Both have always provided modular tookits for OEMs to customize their own ROM images, write their own ACPI tables, etc. UEFI gives even more control to the OEMs. If Framework isn't doing that properly, that's on them.

It appears that Framework contracted out the development of their (Insyde-based) firmware to somebody who, to put it mildly, does not treat them as a priority. Either way, Framework’s firmware is really bad, and that’s entirely on Framework; you can look around on the forums for the horror stories in the (open) EC code around power delivery for instance. As another example of a vendor low-key screwing Framework in a…

Interestingly, I once saw them posting job for UEFI developer, and FW developer.

They definitely have FW team inhouse, but idk if that team handle the EC too.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#257

Post by Brian_K_White »

wtfrmyinitials wrote: post #119

Anyone else bothered by the author’s constant return to whining about how Framework did not do enough for this specific repair? Each time I found myself thinking “ok, rant over, now on to the interesting technical bits” only for the rant to resume a few paragraphs later.

No. I feel it's at least 50% of the story because FW themselves make so much hay about it. They aren't just failing at something, they are failing at the single differentiator that they charge more money for. their one and only selling point and value proposition.

It deserves to be laid out and reiterated, and it's the author's choice what they want to talk about, and they want to talk about FW as much as the technical incidentia.

If you just want to learn how to flash an isp chip, there are surely countless sources.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#258

Post by _jackdk_ »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #51
susanthenerd wrote: post #31

Honestly, this is why I like Dutch consumer law. Dutch law states that the guarantee duration is dependent on the expected lifespan of a product. Continued official BIOS support is evidence that the device remains within its supported lifetime and also dutch law treats defective or incomplete updates as non-conformity. Therefore, in this situation it would be framework fault and the device would also be within warran…

The Australia consumer laws are also famously strong. One question: That Dutch law is not zero-cost. Does Framework Laptop charger higher prices compared to the US due to this consumer protection laws? My point: We can presume that Dutch buyers will make more (valid/accepted) warranty claims than those in the United States (with comparatively much weaker consumer laws).

Yeah, the ACL is fantastic. I have an AMD Framework 13 that had a fan bearing fail, which caused the fan to scream and spin up/down erratically. I had a long back-and-forth with Framwework support where they told me what I already knew (the fan bearing failed and the fan needed replacing) and that it was out of warranty (yeah nah, not in Australia). As soon as I mentioned the consumer guarantees under the ACL, I was invited to remove the SSD and ship the unit to their service centre for a fix.

The machine has been fine since and I still really like it.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#259

Post by DANmode »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #251
DANmode wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exciting tools are often dangerous.

This problem was not the natural result of "exiting". There is no reason FW couldn't supply a recovery method. That's not "hey that's life on the bleeding edge!" For that matter, the whole product isn't bleeding edge since years ago anyway. Someone else noticed that there is actually a (unpopulated) header for flashing, which avoids the janky pogo pin thing even unpopulated. Why didn't fw point him at it when explici…

What’s this have to do with my T420 and T480 being great, despite not having consumer “looks”.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#260

Post by mrheosuper »

Grombobulous wrote: post #233
cschep wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you brick your MacBook Pro and take it to an Apple repair center, they might just be throwing your board in the trash and replacing it, charging you $500, and you get your computer back "repaired." No one bricked their own laptop! They installed an update provided by the people that made the laptop! You bet your ass if installing software provided by apple bricked a macbook pro they would fix it for free. If the…

Apple absolutely does not fix bricked systems out of warranty, regardless of cause or fault. Certainly not two years removed from the warranty. They can, in very rare cases, get bricked by failed updates. It’s not totally unheard of. “Unequivocally wrong” is highly debatable. You may feel that way but I don’t. I’m not defending anyone, I’m just providing a reality check on how things work when you buy a product from…

So you are saying if your laptop is out of warranty, they are free to do everything they want without any responsibilities ?

Like if this update bricked like thousands of out of warranty laptop, they are still free to go?

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