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SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

nytimes.com

251–260 of 322 posts

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

laws work best when they don't fill the courts with disputes that courts aren't designd to handle. There is no way the government can define and enforce your utopia with respect to "cults of personality". Please, give it a shot, what are the markers of a corporate cult of personality that needs to be regulated?

I can tell you're being disingenuous and that this isn't going to be a constructive conversation, but I'll bite. -- You are confusing the topic here (I think purposefully). The first idea is whether asking an employer to hold another employee accountable for the rules of conduct agreed to by all employees is allowed. It is. It falls under protected speech at work in the United States. This has been codified for decad…

so what? If you don't like Elon, boycott his products. Don't buy his shares. Don't work for him.

Elon's track record is doing things that have made him the richest person in the world, winning at multiple games many other very clever people are trying very hard to win, including engaging in fields of endeavor that the "socially conscious" among you claim that they endorse. Even Lenin and Mao would admit that Elon has accomplished things that they would wish to accomplish themselves.

That alone gives Elon credibility that vastly outpaces, collectively, yours, these disgruntled employees, and the Democratic Party who have decided he's public enemy number one because he got fed up with Twitter cooperating with a one party state to subvert the 1st amendment and suppress speech they don't like.

Let him be him, why do you have this incredible urge to control other people and make them say things you like, or punish them if they don't? Elon has earned the right to control Tesla, Twitter, and SpaceX, and Twitter was subverting democracy before Elon arrived, and that's what upsets you.

I don't care if you are disingenuous, if you're not, your sincerely held beliefs are dangerous to other people around you.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#252
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> bad corporate leadership does not require govt oversight and intervention. And employees don't decide who is breaking the rules, just like crime victims don't actually run our courtrooms: it's not a good idea, noble as it sounds in a childish sort of way. So who does? Not the government, not the employees, who decides the corporate leadership is acting in bad faith and needs to be accountable? Stop the boring soapb…

define acting in bad faith, you can't just soapbox it, then get your way. After you've defined it, then point out who is the counterparty in that transaction. that person/entity has the recourse they have, it can vary. Once you decide you don't like transacting with a person, you can stop. Everything doesn't necessarily work out the way you want, we all take lumps.

"Society" and "limited liability corporations" didn't just get invented, we have a system that works fine. People who own things ultimately get to decide what happens to them, within the strictures of their ownership (for example, shareholders, contracts, etc.)

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind she answers to Musk, you can't assume she had the leeway in this instance, especially since he likely got a bee in his bonnet about it and took an uncompromising position.

Nuremberg defense. She could have quit.

You've got to pick your battles, and let's face it, a well run and sensibly led SpaceX is a benefit to society (so far).

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Circulating an open letter point-blank criticizing the CEO is absolutely unprofessional and I'm honestly shocked anyone here thinks they could pull this crap without getting fired.

This is a good point. Since employees are not shareholders they have no standing to criticize a CEO. Only someone with a financial stake in the future of a company should be able to voice their concerns without fear of retribution

Indeed, the serfs need to be reminded of their position at the bottom. They serve at my pleasure, and they would be good to remember that next time they have some minor quibble. Like children, they need a strong hand to discipline them, and should be seen, but not heard.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abuse of power is a relative term. If something is the norm, then doing it is not abuse. It's fine in most companies to complain about the boss to HR or to the boss themselves, but not fine to complain it to someone else. If I had bad boss who isn't doing anything illegal or breaks company's policy, I would likely switch my job rather than taking the impossible task of fixing them if they don't want to fix themselves…

We should aspire higher than moral relativism and "might is right".

We should, but looking at events over the last year or 20 shows that things aren't moving that way at all.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100%. If you want behaviour changed with proper penalties, allow private enforcement of rights.

Or just give the government reasonable power to enforce things. GDPR, as an example, has been very effective, because the fines which can be levied for violations are genuinely impactful to businesses. The maximum fine is 4% of global annual revenue. Alphabet, for instance, could theoretically be liable for up to $11b, or around 20% of their net income. Amazon could be liable for up to $20b -- almost double their ope…

GDPR is about giving control to people by disallowing data controllers from just passing the buck to 3rd party data processors.

But you can already just not work for Elon if you think he’s an asshole.

What’s the compelling state interest here?

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. Since employees are not shareholders they have no standing to criticize a CEO. Only someone with a financial stake in the future of a company should be able to voice their concerns without fear of retribution

Indeed, the serfs need to be reminded of their position at the bottom. They serve at my pleasure, and they would be good to remember that next time they have some minor quibble. Like children, they need a strong hand to discipline them, and should be seen, but not heard.

Exactly, and it is good that none of these big companies regularly reward stock options as a way of remuneration or else the situ

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#258
post #247

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> (By the way, the phrase "DEI" doesn't appear in the letter, either.) From the letter: > But for all our technical achievements, SpaceX fails to apply these principles to the promotion of diversity, equity, and inclusion [emphasis added] with equal priority across the company, resulting in a workplace culture that remains firmly rooted in the status quo. > Individuals and groups of employees at SpaceX have spent sig…

My mistake re DEI. I searched for "diversity," not sure why it didn't come up, guess I must've made a typo. The point that it wasn't what they were asking for stands. > That's not illegal. I think what you may be discovering is that you have more rights as an employee than you previously thought. Given that both of us have acknowledged we're not lawyers - we should assume the NLRB understands this better than us, rig…

> Given that both of us have acknowledged we're not lawyers - we should assume the NLRB understands this better than us, right?

Maybe. Maybe they just don't like Musk so they throw everything they can at him regardless of merit. Given Musk's other misadventures in labor relations, it would stand to reason that the people at the NRLB are not fans of his.

Maybe the 8 people who were fired are just hoping for a quick settlement and some extra money. They might have a hard time finding new jobs now that they've outed themselves as insufferable woke scolds. Probably no reference from SpaceX forthcoming...

You can't just assume that since someone filed a lawsuit they're automatically right, especially after hearing only one side. Otherwise we wouldn't have that whole trial thingy, you know? Would you apply the same logic to all the lawsuits where Musk is the plaintiff?

At any rate, I'd give 10:1 odds that 90% of SpaceX employees are relieved these 8 no long work there.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But being fired the next day for a open letter that has some reasonable critique is something else. And there's also employer rights btw.

Circulating an open letter point-blank criticizing the CEO is absolutely unprofessional and I'm honestly shocked anyone here thinks they could pull this crap without getting fired.

Yeah well, we have laws and a legal system right? I don't think our legal system says that you can't criticize the company you're working for, or that a company can fire people for criticizing the company.

Criticism is healthy and should be respected. Even if it is "unprofessional", that doesn't give the company the right to just fire someone for that. If you would allow companies to fire their employees for criticism, that sounds a lot like a dictatorship to me.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#260
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mistake re DEI. I searched for "diversity," not sure why it didn't come up, guess I must've made a typo. The point that it wasn't what they were asking for stands. > That's not illegal. I think what you may be discovering is that you have more rights as an employee than you previously thought. Given that both of us have acknowledged we're not lawyers - we should assume the NLRB understands this better than us, rig…

> Given that both of us have acknowledged we're not lawyers - we should assume the NLRB understands this better than us, right? Maybe. Maybe they just don't like Musk so they throw everything they can at him regardless of merit. Given Musk's other misadventures in labor relations, it would stand to reason that the people at the NRLB are not fans of his. Maybe the 8 people who were fired are just hoping for a quick se…

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